Uncontrollable daughter, no help

[Oellph]

Our daughter is 10. Her brother is 13 and is no trouble at all. Very sensible, grown up and takes responsibility for himself and his actions.

She can be a real darling. Apparently exhibits no bad behaviours at school. But at home she very quickly complains of boredom. Needs constant activity. But the worst comes at bed time. For a long time we've struggled to get her to sleep much before 10:30. Her TV and internet access go off at 10pm unless it's the holidays. She'll demand more and when she doesn't get it, starts banging doors, throwing stuff around in her room (at times it's been impossible to walk through her bedroom because of what was on the floor) and then getting physical with us. She doesn't seem to want to sleep and that then triggers the boredom and uncontrollable desire for TV or internet.

There are days when she refuses to go to school. We've talked with them. Had a few meetings. It seems to boil down to not liking the feel of the school shirt or some other seemingly minor thing.

We've tried CAMHS and GP. Apparently she doesn't warrant help or intervention. But honestly, it feels one step removed from serious harm or incident.

It makes me (her dad) feel so angry. Especially when she hurts her mum.

We've tried reward charts, removal of certain things (iPad etc.). But nothing seems to click. When she gets into this frame of mind, no logic, reasoning or anything else seems to snap her out of it until a point where the escalation has gotten to breaking point :(

Last night was a good example. She's had an iPhone (one of our old ones) for the last year, but without a SIM card. WiFi only at home or via our hotspots. Like her friends, and her brother before her, we gave her a SIM card yesterday as a late Christmas present. (Although she has to pay part of the monthly charge herself). She was over the moon. Really happy. And when we gave it, she promised that bedtime would be prompt at 10pm. But come that time, it all kicked off again. As bad as ever. I just cannot understand how, having been given something nice, a bit more ownership and responsibility, she throws it right back in our face.

If we try non violent resistance, she will start to disturb her brother, or start throwing other stuff around the house. (If she stayed in her room and trashed that, I'd leave her to it).

Earlier in the year I took up archery and I thought it would be a good father/daughter activity and bonding, so she joined with me. We go once or twice a week. But it's another example of nothing really clicking.

When it's at its worst I'm starting to wish we'd never had her ;(

Without any professional help, we feel hopeless.

Special Educational Needs teaching assistant here. It sounds a lot like ASD. I'd speak to the school about organizing an assessment.

Oh wow, I am overwhelmed with the number of responses. Thank you to everyone who has commented, from whichever viewpoint you have. I've long denied it might be neurological myself. We've tried many things I wasn't able to describe in my opening post, including removal of tech, baths, stories, soft lights. It works occasionally but the majority of time she just doesn't appear to be tired and ready for sleep. What I would say to those who say we just need to be better parents. Having done what you say, when it still doesn't work, what do you do? Because that's how things have felt over the years.

I'm going to reread all of your posts and start following up on some of the suggestions, accepting there's no quick fix and it's going to take even more effort from us.

This mine is 9 and has none. No phone either.

take it and wrestle the demon for the toxic

give activity choice eg swimming or bowling if she kicks off take her brother and go and leave her with the other parent.

offer hot chocolate and a board game - kicks off leave her alone

offer something else 4 hours later

like with a toddler don’t fear the tantrum don’t respond to it

I definitely think 10pm is way too late for a 10 year old, mine have that occasionally in the holidays and are 9 and 10. School nights they're in bed between 8-8.30, no screens but can read for a short while, I ideally want them asleep between 8.30-9. Xh keeps them up much later and it is apparent, horrible moods, very emotional and argumentative. They definitely appreciate the boundaries in my house and are much happier and well behaved.

give activity choice eg swimming or bowling if she kicks off take her brother and go and leave her with the other parent

This is a terrible way to treat an ASD kid. And she is obviously ASD. Choices could cause meltdowns and leaving her behind Is appalling.

Shrs obviously not NT so won’t respond in a NT way. Punishments like leaving behind don’t work for ASD children. It makes them worse.

Actually she sounds a lot like I was at that age and I have ADHD and autism. My ADHD is the hyper-focus sort too, so I do find that many times I cannot switch off and go to sleep. Of course, I have medication now that helps me to sleep.

I would get her assessed for both tbh. You need to know if she is nuero-diverse (ND) or naughty due to screen addiction because that drives how you address the behavioural issues. The usual discipline and parenting techniques will not work on a nuero-diverse child.

In the meantime, try not to get angry or ascribe negative motivations to her behaviour- I.e your tone regarding the SIM card calling it “throwing it back in our faces” is not on. Regardless of ND or naughty…that’s not what is happening.

With respect, why would you deny it might be neurodiversity, when there is a wealth of literature and guidance of how to help neurodiverse DC?

Forget what other people think about how you should parent and listen to your child. Learn why she is overwrought and what she cannot cope with. Learn what makes her feel better. If she has sensory issues, see if there are any sensory processing workshops for children in your local health trust (this was the single most useful hour, plus the follow up meetings with a paediatric OT)

A really useful book I found was ‘Raising a sensory smart child’ by Lindsey Beil. Some of it is aimed ar younger children than your DC but it will give you a good insight into sensory issues which many of us have, neurodiverse or not.

What I would say to those who say we just need to be better parents. Having done what you say, when it still doesn't work, what do you do? Because that's how things have felt over the years.

I think by age 10, it’s not a question of “better parenting” not when you are both engaged parents and been trying different things. It’s highly likely imho to be ASD and/or ADHD so you need to get your DD assessed. It’s a myth too that good behaviour at school means it can’t be ND, especially in girls due to masking.

If your DD were NT, then chances are you’d have found the right parenting techniques by now as they are all designed for NT kids. The fact that nothing has worked despite years of effort, is a factor indicating a ND DC. If she is ND, you will need to get parenting guidance on how to parent a ND child based on what sort(s) of diversity she has and how it presents.

Another factor is that your other DC is perfectly well behaved and well adjusted. You’ve been parenting them both the same, have you not? So this means it’s not likely to be bad parenting, but rather NT parenting that has worked for your NT DC, but not for your ND DC. NT parenting of a ND DC makes their behaviour worse and in the long term will caused MH issues. So this does matter a lot.

Would you not try and compromise and leave her watch TV? Would she fall asleep watching it ? I've adhd and a sleep disorder and I've always needed stimulation to sleep. Not that I've ever been great at sleeping.

Look up autism with PDA profile. It’s very challenging as a parent - she sounds very like my DS (who has that and also has ADHD!)

We've found Ritalin and Risperidone life-changing.

Dd has ASD and was almost exactly like this at 10, though for her the school avoidance came later.

It sounds very much how DD1 (same age) could be - and she's on the waiting list for assessment (they think ADHD, I strongly suspect - and have done for about 5 years - ASD considering me and her sister are diagnosed). With DD1 she responds better with very clear boundaries and the explanation of WHY given once and then it a non-negotiable. She responds well to me distracting her and pre-empting her before she throws a wobbly and then we just disengage and let her strop it out - and she'll come back like nothing's happened 10 minutes later.

Her self-esteem and self-confidence is pretty low so we do have to work on that - and when she's not feeling confident her behaviour escalates and becomes louder - it's taken time for school to get that understanding in place - and she really really struggles with changes. However she's a lovely mature and kind young lady under it all once you work around her challenges.

She's also vile when tired and 10pm would kill us all!

@Ameadowwalk I used to but in the last year I opened up to the possibilities, especially because of what you and others are saying. We've raised one child (so far) very successfully and feel we did the same for our daughter.

We tried leaving her to her TV only but found she was still awake at 3am. We had some success with rain and river sounds but the benefits are temporary. Her iPad is set to warm / orange light at night and we have some colour changing LEDs around the ceiling which I set to something more soothing and gentle.

I've read about meltdowns this morning on the autism.org.uk website and this feels so familiar.

I've suggested to her today that we put screens away at 9am and spend the last hour playing some board games, which she was happy with. Getting her to sleep earlier than 10pm is, I feel, highly unlikely.

I'd be really happy to pay for private referral and advice to explore ASD and will see what's available.

My DD has ADHD and lots of similar things. Read up on ADHD in girls. If she's Yr6 then it's perfectly normal to have a phone and loads Yr6 I know have a 10pm lights out. A lot of extra curricular stuff for yr6 don't even finish until 9pm

I don't know much about ASD/ADHD but a friend has a son who has ADHD (now grown up) and she got him a trampoline to wear him out. She also got him into rock climbing, again to wear him out. He's now 19 and is in the Navy, but boxes in his spare time. Do you think, Op, that excess energy might be a factor?

Also, look at her diet. Does she eat healthily? Does she demand the same things over and over again?

Again, not an expert, but I have a 16 year old, a moody one! who in the past has had sleep issues.

My other DC is Yr6 and just 11 and all his mates go to bed around 10pm.

Whilst the default go-to on every single thread about children with behavoural issues is ADHD/ASD/Autism there will never be help for parents who want to discuss and take advice about kids who are simply misbehaving.

There's lots of general good advice here about time limits & boundries. OP has clearly tried lots of these & other child is very different.
What those with ND DC are saying is not to rule it out. Having a ND child can test you to breaking point as they don't respond to general parenting good advice

Screens out at 10 and straight to bed is a sudden transition from high stimulation to no stimulation when she's already tired - asd kids are notoriously poor at transitions - and even neurological kids can find screens addictive. Boardgames at 9pm sounds like a good idea. Are there any other ways you can ease transitions for her late in the evening? When do you eat and what do you do over supper?

I would investigate some of the strategies recommended for children with PDA. I have an autistic child and a child with ADHD and a child who is NT. Even though none of them have PDA I find the strategies more effective than 'normal' parenting.

I also got the book 'Easier, Happier, Calmer Parenting' which has some great suggestions.

With all of mine the preteen and early teen years were hard work and needed a great deal of empathy.

Because this girl is displaying strong ASD issues. If you have an ASD kid you instantly recognise the symptoms.

No child simply misbehaves for no reason, ND or otherwise. All behaviour is communication and if you don't understand that as a starting point, you can't deal with it effectively.

The reason neurodiversity is suggested on these threads is because those of us with ND children can easily recognise the signs and we don't want people to rule it out.

OP my DD will for example have a long bath, be in bed and seemingly on track. Then I'll check and she'll have got up & started painting / doing her nails or something else random. Sometimes just goes mad and picks fights with sibling. Trashes room. She also takes sissors to labels. Will refuse school for random reasons. Will fake head aches / sickness at school to get let home early when she's had enough. Was ok at primary but never sat still. Struggled to sit still once at high. Can't focus for long boring lessons. ADHD. Medication helps a lot

That’s not the default though….that’s what is suggested when there are numerous signs it might be a factor.