Uncontrollable daughter, no help

[Oellph]

Our daughter is 10. Her brother is 13 and is no trouble at all. Very sensible, grown up and takes responsibility for himself and his actions.

She can be a real darling. Apparently exhibits no bad behaviours at school. But at home she very quickly complains of boredom. Needs constant activity. But the worst comes at bed time. For a long time we've struggled to get her to sleep much before 10:30. Her TV and internet access go off at 10pm unless it's the holidays. She'll demand more and when she doesn't get it, starts banging doors, throwing stuff around in her room (at times it's been impossible to walk through her bedroom because of what was on the floor) and then getting physical with us. She doesn't seem to want to sleep and that then triggers the boredom and uncontrollable desire for TV or internet.

There are days when she refuses to go to school. We've talked with them. Had a few meetings. It seems to boil down to not liking the feel of the school shirt or some other seemingly minor thing.

We've tried CAMHS and GP. Apparently she doesn't warrant help or intervention. But honestly, it feels one step removed from serious harm or incident.

It makes me (her dad) feel so angry. Especially when she hurts her mum.

We've tried reward charts, removal of certain things (iPad etc.). But nothing seems to click. When she gets into this frame of mind, no logic, reasoning or anything else seems to snap her out of it until a point where the escalation has gotten to breaking point :(

Last night was a good example. She's had an iPhone (one of our old ones) for the last year, but without a SIM card. WiFi only at home or via our hotspots. Like her friends, and her brother before her, we gave her a SIM card yesterday as a late Christmas present. (Although she has to pay part of the monthly charge herself). She was over the moon. Really happy. And when we gave it, she promised that bedtime would be prompt at 10pm. But come that time, it all kicked off again. As bad as ever. I just cannot understand how, having been given something nice, a bit more ownership and responsibility, she throws it right back in our face.

If we try non violent resistance, she will start to disturb her brother, or start throwing other stuff around the house. (If she stayed in her room and trashed that, I'd leave her to it).

Earlier in the year I took up archery and I thought it would be a good father/daughter activity and bonding, so she joined with me. We go once or twice a week. But it's another example of nothing really clicking.

When it's at its worst I'm starting to wish we'd never had her ;(

Without any professional help, we feel hopeless.

Ha - cross-post @Geneticsbunny ! There you go, double the reason to read it, @Oellph

Sorry to be more specific.

You can have boundaries whilst allowing your DD to self regulate. So tell her that your opinion is 8pm is proper bedtime, but you are leaving her with the tablet so she has access to sleep sounds if she can't sleep.

autisticgirlsnetwork.org/

www.witherslackgroup.co.uk/how-can-we-help/parents-and-carers/our-support-for-you-and-your-child/webinars/

Gently introduce one change at a time slowly and ask your go for an autism and/or adhd assessment referral. If you can afford to pay for a private diagnosis then do it because the waiting lists are several years long in some areas.

Different things work for different families, but in our house we have a hard stop on tech after dinner - the sitting down to dinner being the transition. I think the blue light screens is unhelpful in the evening. We have a very inflexible bedtime routine involving half an hour of reading before bed to wind down instead.

Sounds like an internet addiction to me. Withdrawal symptoms are chemically similar to people withdrawing from drugs. You need to reign in the tech usage in your household. We only have 1.5 hours of wifi a day, the kids can choose when they have their online time. When we first introduced the rule it was horrendous, kids crying, slamming doors. But about a week later they accepted that this is the new way of life and their behaviour and temper tantrums have practically vanished! That was about a year ago. They are nice kids now, play with their toys etc (which they weren’t doing when they had unlimited screens).

You need time between the internet being switched off and bedtime. (Look up blue light).

So adjust her routine. Phone/ screens off at 8pm.

Then she has a bath or shower.

Then she can have a drink and snack to insure she isn't hungry at nighttime.

Then bedtime for 20 minutes before lights out.

She may not like the dark so look into night lights etc.

But ideally she should be going to be easier than 10pm anyway so you need to try and bring the whole bedtime routine forward. And if you can't at least removing tech at 8pm means that by the time she's finished her behaviours it's probably still 10pm!

Do you have an ASD child?

Your post would indicate not. Total lack of understanding is the only thing your post indicates.

Classic neuro diverse. You’ve described so many traits.

Might be worth looking up the description of PDA on the autisme society site. Sounds very like dd who refused school, had problems with labels in clothes. AT one point she cut holes in her bedroom wallpaper because it was 'her' room.

Hi OP,

this behaviour sounds very much like our own DD, who is also refusing school.

She is currently being assessed for ASD and ADHD as she has traits of both. She is also violent and aggressive when exhausted and overwhelmed after school.

Don’t let others minimise a ‘small thing’ like a school shirt. This can be hugely aggravating for children on the spectrum.

Our DD too wasn’t sleeping till after 10 until we tried melatonin. The effect was immediate and she is now able to rest and sleep from 8.30ish. The aggression reduced in the PM at least too.

Weighted blanket also helps her calm down after school and at night time.

Good luck, and maybe consider requesting a referral to the Paediatric team for an assessment for ASD/ADHD? Speaking to the SENCO at school too about how girls present differently might also help.

You can't always just say autistic or adhd for everything . And yes I have a autistic child. The things you describe could be any child . Autistic or not.
Also don't jump on the medication path so quickly. She is 10 .
Even if she is autistic , it doesn't change anything . You wont get much if any help.
You still need to sort a better routine and boundaries to help with her behaviour.
I agree she doesn't sound like she has been treated like a 10 year old . She sounds like a teenager .
My 11 year old reads or draws in her room . No mobile or TV till 10. Asleep by 9.
My autistic 14 year old has a 9.30 bedtime on a school night . Audio book is put on to help her get sleepy and calm . Lovely calming night lights .
We set up a routine when she was a toddler and diagnosed asd. And it's adapted over the years to suit her age . But routine for any child is important

I used to put stories on a CD player when my dd was that age. Is this possible? Trouble is now it’s on iPad and they can play things on them.

l agree 10.00lm is too late and too late for bed. Having said that, my ASD child was also an owl, so wouldn’t go to sleep at night.

But speaking books were brilliant. She like Hetty Feather l think.

Your boundaries are too lax. 10pm is a ridiculous time for a 10 year old, no wonder she's not doing well at school as she hasn't had a long enough sleep. Letting her use technology in her room too I'd question, are you sure she's safely using the internet?

You need to firm up your boundaries, have real consequences when she kicks off, remove privileges and follow through. Review your bed time at a better hour, then reward good behaviour. We have a values diary at home whenever they do something that meets our values they wrote it down then get a treat (we do this once a fortnight) but I find acknowledging good behaviour and saying why it's good works really well. Initially she will be worse, but stick to it she will eventually toe the line.

I listened to an interesting lecture recently that suggests children shouldn't be on a screen for an hour before school or an hour before sleep as they struggle to switch from a virtual world running at 100mph to reality which is of course much slower.

Yeah, l always found rewarding the hood behaviour worked the best.

My very difficult ASD 10 year old is 17 now. We don’t get meltdowns anymore apart from exams and school. But the school have been helpful. As she got older she could articulate instead of melting down. She’s honestly delightful now, but l remember the hell of her being 9 and 10.

She won’t talk to certain teachers now. Parents evening can be fun😂

You might have an ASD/ADHD/AAD or whatever child but it doesn’t mean all children with behavioural problems have these. We are too quick nowadays to label badly behaved and/or spoilt kids with autism and such. Before we do this we have to examine our parenting and other factors. It is damaging to label a child with autism etc..instead of looking at other possible causes. If you read OP’s post, her daughter clearly has screen addiction. A 10 year-old staying up till 10pm with screen activity will likely fall asleep at around 11pm and when it’s time get up in the morning for school she will be grumpy and exhausted. And the cycle continues. More meltdowns, more screen, more shouting and door slamming, more hitting others…it’s a vicious cycle only the parents can stop with more responsible parenting.

Far too much screen time and too little sleep.

We are too quick nowadays to label badly behaved and/or spoilt kids with autism and such

Actually girls are severely underdiagnosed. We have 4 dc. All easy until Dd arrived. I was a secondary teacher for 27 years. I’ve seen a lot of ASD kids. And actually l think a lot are not even diagnosed. They are just labelled ‘naughty’.

The bedtime is too late. But l recognise an ASD kid when l see one. And I’m 99% sure the op’s child has undiagnosed ASD. The school refusal is the biggest indicator, along with the good behaviour at school and bad at home. These are 2 of the biggest markers.

Not all ASD kids are school refusers, but school refusers are almost always on the spectrum.

I think it just sounds like too much TV/internet. One of mine gets angsty with it too.

she needs to go to bed earlier and read a book.

@Oellph I agree about investigating the possibility of neurodivergence.
It seems that, in girls at least, autism become such more if a problem around that sort if age too, getting worse again with the start of secondary school.

In the mean time, maybe read around autism and techniques to support a child with autism. Read around meltdowns too.
I don’t think that punishments work tbh. Rewarding good behaviours, setting extremely clear boundaries help. And so does giving time to wind down after school (how many activities does she do after school for example)

Btw dont dismiss the issue with clothes label. Some people REALLY find that unbearable. (Not just with autism btw)

Agreed! Try proper parenting first and putting rules in place. If that doesn't work investigate further!

Yeah, labels are part of the sensory thing if ASD.

School refusal due to itchy labels in shirt is not about ‘parenting’

Compliant at school and meltdowns at home is not about ‘parenting’

They are about a brain that functions slightly differently and need support and calmness. Not discipline. They aren’t about bad parenting.

My ASD Dd was very difficult to get to sleep at night. She was often awake at 10 or later whatever l did. Even though her bedtime at 10 years was about 8:30-9.00

They need to remove phone from bedroom and aim for earlier bedtime. But the l found letting my dd on iPad before bed soothed her.

Saying it is bad parenting is like saying a child with a broken leg broke it because the parents let it go to a park. Dealing with ASD kids is about survival and whatever works to keep them happy. I think that’s good parenting.

Oh look, here come the NT parents of NT children, telling us about labels 🙄

I have one of each. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Listen.