At a loss with pre school

[Remihastwomummies]

Hi folks. Im sure this has been asked a million times so im sorry in advance!

Just sort of looking for advice, or if anyone's been here before how it went for them etc.

My little girl is 4, started nursery in september. Absolutely adored it at the start skipped in, didn't even say goodbye. Came home with all the stories about this kid, that teacher. What they did. What she enjoyed and didnt enjoy.

After christmas its been a completely different story. Doesnt want to go, shes not pin pointing one certain thing that has annoyed her. It seems to be if I mention staying for lunch (she does 9-1.30 in a nursery attached to the school) she says no its too long.

Ive been in constant contact with the school the teachers genuinely have all been amazing and do not think this is me running them down because its not. Theyve allowed her to stay just 9-12 but have said they'd like her to stay to 1.30 again after the mid term break next week. Ive brought it up to her and shes saying its too long and she just wants to stay home.

After christmas as well the teacher did tell me she wasnt playing well with other kids, or really at all. Would just walk about in circles from toy to toy. Would much prefer the company of adults and would follow the teachers everywhere. And when asked by the teacher why she didnt want to come to nursery anymore she said "i just want to sit on my sofa and watch my tablet" me too hun. The school also want SENCO to come and have a wee watch of her and see where to go from there which ive agreed too cuz I want to help her with whatever is going on and I also have an apt set up with the dr because the school is now thinking she may be autistic.

I dont really know what I want from this post other than has anyone been here, could it be possible its not autism its just she wants to be with me after the christmas break? Its just breaking my heart seeing her going from being so happy, bringing the pictures she was drawing me home, skipping in to this little girl who cries at the doors?

Sorry for the long post!!!!

I have worked in nurseries and have a DS in nursery preschool too. He goes in like an absolute dream and pretty much always has aside from maybe the first week.

Some suggestions/tips:
Keep drop off consistent and confident, if you're anxious about it don't let her see that. I've always given my son a cuddle and said something like 'mummy loves you, have a lovely time, I'll be back to get you later' and then I leave and don't look back. Don't linger or try to settle her in, let the staff do that.

Nursery is not optional, don't ask if she's ready to leave or ask if she's going to stay longer today, tell her what will happen, when you'll be back and what will happen after nursery.

Build up to the longer day regardless of what nursery have said. When my DS went up to full days I started at 9-2, then 9-3 and just gradually increased until he was managing 9-5 as it was hard for him to start with as he'd only done half days before that. He wouldn't cry going in but would struggle just before pick up.

Focus on connection and chill time after nursery. A dedicated 30 minutes of time just you and her if possible and then play/tv/tablet etc.

I always think it must be hard for kids having long holidays from nursery as i think the routine of going every week is helpful.

I hope some of that helps, no judgement, just some ideas based on what I've seen over the years :)

Thanks so much for the reply! I have been keeping in consistent apart from the first day it happened as it was so unexpected. She has got a whole lot better which is great. But anytime I mention lunches to her shes not happy. Doesnt mean im not going to do it I absolutely am!

She was at a wee school trip yesterday and they where gone 9-1.30. So I said to her look you did lunches then and it was alright? The teacher also told me at pick up that "there was a lot of tears and was very unsettled all day" but when I ask my DD she said she cried once cuz she was stuck somewhere high but is buzzing telling me all about the fun she had.

Id love to be a fly on the wall to see but I do think sitting in nursery with her would make it much worse on her and shed want me to stay all day. Plus her nursery doesn't even allow us in the cloak room!

Maybe you can dig into the lunch issue a bit more? Does she not like the food? Does she find the room too noisy etc? Maybe a packed lunch would help?

It's good that she can tell you about her day, that's always helpful!

Hopefully she'll get used to it since she's got even longer days ahead when she starts school.

Yeah I did say she can come with me to the shop and help me pick what she takes for lunches. So maybe she'll feel a bit more involved/in control of the situation. The autistic thing completely threw me though!

But thank you so much for you advice! Ill try and remember all this when im feeling like the worlds worst mummy at drop of lol

Oo yes good idea, perhaps a fun packed lunch box or new bottle might help too.

We've had involvement from the nursery senco too as they were concerned about speech and social skills when he'd only been there a few months. It really threw us too as we never considered him as potentially autistic. It all just sorted itself out luckily, his speech is great and he's playing nicely with friends now :) better to go down the route of needing support and not end up needing it than them not highlighting concerns.

Have you left her for lunch and just not picked up at 12??

I honestly wouldn’t give a choice (I know it sounds harsh)

my daughter struggled starting reception this year and I managed to muddle through first month picking up on time - but she had to join after school club by mid October and then I had to add breakfast club!! it was horrible for ages having to drop at breakfast club always a drama but I had no choice because I had to get baby to nursery and on to work for 9!! I was feeling so guilty for ages - but after a week or so she just never had a problem anymore - guess she got used to it / started to make some friends eventually - she does still delay some mornings and moan a bit about not wanting to go there and that she doesn’t get enough time at home anymore (I agree tbh) but this is just how it has to be at the moment :(

Take the tablet away and don't give a choice what time she's picked up. Children need consistent boundaries and not opportunities to be negotiaters. I don't think being unsettled for less than half the term, having previously managed well, is an indication of autism.

I also think it surprised me too when she said SENCO cuz I always assumed that was for the bigger kids? Cuz let's face it, 4 year olds are a strange bunch. She could play with loads of kids one day then be offended by their presence the next lol. But I absolutely will do anything to help her!

Part of me thinks its seperation anxiety with her but then what if im wrong and its something else! I dont think ive ever been this stressed in my life lol

It was the nursery that suggested she go to 12 to let her settle back in. Well I say suggest it was more sort of told? But not in a nasty or harsh way. I 100% know its going to throw her again when shes in for lunches and im 100% prepared to keep at it and push through.

It was the nursery said to do the 12 oclock finish then when they suggested her go back after half term for lunches like I was the one stopping her? It was the day coming back from Christmas it was suggested about autism which i found slightly confusing cuz my DD wasnt the only kid upset and a bit unsettled all day?

Early years children can need additional support or have disabilities, just as much as the bigger kids!

If they're offering that additional support and raising concerns, it won't just be about her being upset. Maybe she struggles with parts of the day, maybe her interactions with peers or adults have been picked up as unusual - have they told you exactly what their concerns are, have you had a conversation with the SENCO? If they said "we're worried about autism" that's pretty unprofessional as we aren't qualified to diagnose.

At my setting the first step would be a meeting with the parent to go through exactly what behaviour is causing concern and how we think we could support the child, then signpost the parent to GP or other services where the diagnosis, if necessary, could actually occur.

It might just be that she’s realised coming home early is an option for her so she wants to keep doing that. Especially if she’s allowed to play on an iPad since they’re pretty addictive for young kids. Always worth having a proper chat with the senco but it might be beneficial to just make the staying for lunch non negotiable and restricting tablet use to only when you really need it e.g. plane journeys.

The SENCo is involved with my son who is neatly four and is starting school this year. It isn't too early. However my son is more obviously autistic.

You should build up time backwards. Take her just for lunch then when she stays until the end of lunch huge praise etc that she’s been successful (reward the behaviour you want to see). Then add on time backwards until she’s starting at the required time.

We are more likely to change behaviour when we are successful - by leaving early then she failed (or is getting rewarded for behaviour you don’t want) and ending on a negative.

You could also try timers that count down or perhaps she needs more structure eg a schedule - DS is autistic and can’t cope with things being open ended and free play.

Does she usually eat with her ipad? If so, drop that now and no TV either - just food - so that after half term she is not craving all the nice entertainment at lunch when she's home. Plus I would give her something nicer for lunch when she goes to preschool eg. A smoothie in a carton when she just gets water at home.

Is lunchtime at preschool noisy so she doesn't like it? You could maybe talk to the teachers to see if they think it's noise related and give her some earmuffs/ earphones to wear at lunch. (Noise sensitivity is common with autism but kids can have it and still function fine).

I would use end of half term to get some nice stuff for preschool lunch so she knows she's staying without making a bit fuss about it, and then just have the expectation that she's staying. No fuss (going on about it constantly) or stress or bribes from you.

In terms of the Senco, it's a long long journey so best to get on it now if it's going to go anywhere. She won't get a diagnosis for ages even if she is autistic. I would say, though, that preschool staff see a lot of 4 year olds so she must have some key behaviours which have made them think it's a possibility. I would ask them what it is which has made them wonder, and why it has suddenly happened and not before. Or has she always displayed those behaviours?

It's possible that for the first term she had a lot of 1:1 time with adults to help her settle but now they expect her to be settled and she can't cope (eg. Finding her own stuff to do, playing with other children, focusing/ playing without constant attention from an adult etc).

You know it could be this simple.
its not what shes going to at nursery but what she is leaving behind at home. You? Other things etc etc . This happens often. In
reception too. she wont be able to put the feeling intob
words either. Try not to worry(easy to say I know) it will pass

@Remihastwomummies honestly this is far more likely to be separation anxiety and the novelty of nursery having worn off than previously unseen autism 🙄.
I am honestly sick of the first response to any behaviour variation being to query ND. As pps have said, take a gentle approach to gradually increasing the time and the likelihood is that it will resolve itself.

I am honestly sick of the first response to any behaviour variation being to query ND

That's not my experience. Usually experienced practitioners can recognise usual vs unusual behaviour. Every child is different so there's plenty of variation but some struggle in specific ways which can be pointing to ND. It does no one any good to ignore it and just hope it gets better - not the child, the parent, the setting or the other children. OP is lucky there is a Senco, so no harm in him/ her checking things out. It's pretty hard to get any diagnosis these days but the Senco may have ideas to help. Leave it to the professionals!

You need them to give you a clear understanding of exactly why they think she has SEN. It can’t just be about not wanting to stay till 1:30, although if she is autistic or similar she might be getting overwhelmed/burnt out by then.
Your approach of pushing through to the 1:30 finishes is still the right one though. The thought of it is probably worse than the actual doing and she can’t be getting the message that it’s negotiable. That’s not to say you can’t liaise with nursery about how to make it easier- packed lunch instead of provided lunch for example as someone else suggested. Then if it is determined to be SEN then specific accommodations can be considered.

As someone with an ND child I would recommend having the senco observe or talk to your child. It's probably nothing, as you say, 4 yr olds can be funny little things! However, if it is something, the quicker it's picked up absolutely the better, and if they think it is something, and you go on a waiting list for professional assessment now, she'd only be seen aged 6 or 7 (insane but true). So whilst it's scary, and feels really concerning, I'd go with it. School sencos are busy, overworked and won't pick up an extra child just for the fun of it, so if they think it's worth discussion, they're likely correct. It probably is just to rule it out, and then you can also confidently rule that sort of thing out and focus on her confidence/happiness there rather than everyone worrying something is going on (or staff telling you something else might be going on).

I'd suggest trying to go to the full half day. Bluntly, in a years time she's going to have to go daily till 3pm with no option. I'd keep dialogue open with her. Try reading the Worry Monster and asking her about her worries at nursery, or drawing nursery in pictures- she might share something useful. Children that age really aren't that aware of time, so I wouldn't mention 1.30 vs 12. I'd just go with "next week let's try having lunch at nursery" and then make sure you're doing something lovely with her afterward so she feels the quality time is still there with you. If she doesn't cope, or they're seeing lots of upset, or she keeps saying no, then I wouldn't force it, as she's communicating something- but it's important you figure out exactly what that is before school starts, as school refusal is really hard. My ds was a school refuser because of his ND, once we had a diagnosis and support in place it worked much better (which is why I'd try and get the senco view asap, as even if it's not something they think needs a follow up, they'll have support ideas to make her more comfortable and happy that theyll also be able to put into practice at school when the time comes).

This sounds similar to my 3 year old boy. He started nursery in September and was just doing mornings. After Christmas we increased it to a longer day until 2:30 so he stayed for lunch. He went from loving nursery to hating it and became inconsolable when trying to leave the house etc. It was really tricky to get him there.

It turned out it was the lunchtimes that he hated - he didn’t like the food and the pressure of eating it and he found the dinner hall too noisy and busy because all the kids sat together. Nursery have been really accommodating and he now takes a packed lunch and eats it with his key worker away from the noise. He now enjoys going to nursery again.

He is on the waitlist for an autism assessment and has been since he was 2. His older brother is autistic and dyspraxic. Sensory and social are his main struggles.

If the SENCo is getting involved with your daughter then nursery may have more concerns than just anxiety. I would meet with them and take any support they offer.

Like everyone said, don’t give her a choice, it isn’t an option.
Also maybe try this week at least keeping her tablet off her until you would usually be back from school (so for the first 1.5 hours you get home) explain this is still school time, and if she isn’t staying at school, she isn’t just coming home to sit on her tablet. Maybe food (screen free) and then some number/ letter work. Bore her into wanting to stay at school!

I know a few people have mentioned the tablet but that does ring big alarm bells for me, they're so addictive for little ones, even more so than the TV (think it's to do with screen size although not sure of the science behind it). I would be keeping that for weekends only because otherwise I really understand why she just wants to be at home instead of nursery.

This is the issue with giving young children an iPad, it's addictive and now she's literally told you she wants to sit on it all day instead of playing with other children. I'd remove the ipad asap!

What would she do if you were at work full time, she would have to make do and stay for the full day.

Most babies from around 9-12 months are in childcare for much longer days then school nursery and manage just fine

Hi OP, not sure if you are still checking, but my little one is of similar age and has been going to nursery for the past 18 months. We had a long Xmas break and she didn't go for over a month. Since returning She hasn't been as keen on going to nursery either. Everyday she says she doesn't want to go, and can sometimes be clinging on to me when I drop her off... but I think she does actually really like it there. For example, As soon as I am around the corner, if I go back and sneak a look she's all happy, and running off to find her friends. When we go to pick her up she's always happy and sometimes doesn't even want to leave (she's a bit of a social butterfly). I guess my point is that even kids who like nursery can show apprehension about going. As others have said, your little one knowing that preschool isn't their choice is kind of important. (I feel like if given the option, a lot of kids would say they want to stay home with mum). Winter holidays may have just jumbled up their expectations?