Preschool expectations

[sheepisheep]

Can I ask for some feedback about preschool education and if my expectations are way out?

Moved DD3 in September from her lovely nursery to preschool at the prep school we intend her to go to. It's been a bit tough going. Barely any feedback about DD except about her toileting. She kept having (poo) accidents because she's withholding stool. Came to a head at parents evening when they told us she "had one more chance to stop having accidents and then she has to stay at home until the problem is fixed". They also expect all the 3 year olds to be able to wipe themselves, which obviously doesn't happen (and the TA has told us that she just does it for them, but it remains school policy).
Requested a meeting with the head (because the teacher told us it wasn't her decision), and were told we'd be able to meet with her, only for the meeting to be with the just the teacher and TA. Agreed a plan so that DD wasn't being set up to fail and school are involved in giving her her movicol so problem was managed, but no acknowledgement that they'd agreed to a meeting with the head and basically lied to us - it was clear there was never any intention that she'd be there.

There are only 11 in the class, with a teacher and a TA. It sounds like a dream ratio to me. DD goes in happily, has made friends and seems to enjoy herself. Is picking up phonics, seems to love the learning. This week we got a report card which literally just says "meeting expectations" in most areas with 1 "working above expectations" and no further detail.

Is this normal? We got more feedback from her nursery than that on a monthly basis. They seem to be expecting her to act like a 4 or 5 year old, and were only prepared to support her in her individual development when we really pushed. I went to state school and I'm really underwhelmed, having thought that a private school would have a lot more 1-1 focus. But DD seems happy and gets very unsettled by change, so i'd prefer to keep her where she is if we can, and i'm sort of hoping that i'm being unreasonable in some way.

Thanks for reading if you've got this far!

It's not normal for Pre-schools / nursery teachers and staff across the board but treating Nursery age children as if they were a lot older is, IME of visiting Nurseries in several Private schools, typical of private schools.
So it sort of depends what you are asking in your question.

I would never send a 3 yr old or 4, 5, 6, yr old to a Private school myself. But some people like to pay for their dc to be treated as if they are much older children. So it depends what you are looking for in a Nursery.

My daughter is also in the nursery of a prep school. She has had a few accidents (wee) and they have been supportive of this, I think they do expect the children to wipe themselves but my daughter has asked for help a few times and got it no problem. They are treated as an extension of reception I think really though…my daughter is ready for this so I’m fine with it but I made a conscious decision not to send her until she was 3.5 because before that she wasn’t ready in my opinion.

we don’t get an end of term report like the rest of school, but we had a parents evening back in October and have weekly updates on an app - probably 3-5 observations per week of what they’ve been up to.

That's interesting @UsingChangeofName, can I ask why not? The primaries we fall in the catchment for aren't great so we thought private would be better. Perhaps I'm wrong.

When I started as an Early Years teacher in the 80s children were expected to be toilet trained including wiping before they started barring the occasional accident. It worked then and children were able to do it but things have changed and parents leave toilet training until much later now.

Cool story. Was that 3 year olds? Because none of the ones I know possess the coordination or awareness to wipe themselves properly. And she is toilet trained.

Definitely happened in the 80s . Suit yourself whether you believe it or not.

I've never worked in a private school but they might still have the expectations that state nursery schools and classes used to have.

Because the Private schools I have any knowledge of (and this is only half a dozen or so so happy for posters to come and and say this isn't all Private schools) don't follow the EYFS. Don't follow the children's interests or leads. Expect Reception aged children to be sitting formally at desks and following a much more formal education than their actual development is ready for at that age.

Not sure why you are being sarky to @CaptainMyCaptain though. She is right, not only in the 80s either.
When my dc were small (so very end of 90s and into the 00s) they were expected to be toilet trained to start playgroup at 2 and 1/2 .

With regard to the toilet training i’d say this is a normal expectation of a prep or private preschool. I used to work in one and we did no admit children until they were fully toilet trained and that includes completely going themselves with minimal staff input from the outside of a half door. ie. we could give reminders like remember to flush or wash hands but could no way get involved in the process. If a child had an accident, parents would be called and several accidents would result in child being asked to withdraw from the programme until they were ready.

Academic wise Id also say that’s pretty normal for a prep preschool. High academic standards, more formal learning than in state school for the same age and about right for feedback wise.

Not sure how long ago this was but think this is actually illegal now, something to do with disability discrimination. I don’t think anywhere can refuse to have a child who is not toilet trained, whether there is SEN/disability or not.

I thought ALL EYFS settings (including nurseries, childminders, prep school preschools) had to follow the EYFS curriculum? I work in a prep school and my daughter attends the pre school and they definitely follow it. Plenty of child led play and so on as well as teaching of phonics and maths etc, in both reception and preschool. Not sure if some private schools might be more formal than this (I expect so) but my understanding is that the EYFS curriculum is a legal requirement.

In reply to both the last posts though, what the law says, and what actually happens are a long way from one another.

I think it was around 2008 or thereabouts. There have been steadily increasing numbers of children in Nursery and Reception (without diagnosed SEN) who are not toilet trained.

I have lots of experience with state school nurseries. They do often expect a child to be able to wipe their bottom unless there are special needs. (This causes issues with undiagnosed SN of course). Some schools are more flexible than others. One suggested recently that the parents would be called in to wipe them. My 3yo can wipe his bottom, but would prefer not to! We specifically taught him before starting but luckily he started at 3;6.

Feedback - we have regular Tapestry posts (online learning journey) and 1 parents evening. No more formal feedback yet which is normal. This is a state school nursery. It's a very different approach to a day nursery. So your experience sounds fairly normal.

All of my dc could wipe their own bums at 3 so I don't think its an impossible ask. Giving your dc a warning for having accidents when they have a specific issue surrounding toileting is harsh though.

15ish years ago when I first started teaching that age group it was the expectation that all 3+ in nursery or summer childcare would be totally independent with their toileting (very occasional accidents aside). If they weren't, then they would be asked to leave. In several places I worked there was no spare clothing kept on site for a wet or soiled child, and it wasn't routine for the parents to pack spares. The child would be collected and have to go home. Accidents were incredibly rare.

Now the expectation has shifted and its far more common to have learners 3-5 years-old in nappies or needing assistance. There's no additional classroom adults to offer that assistance, which means they need to be taken from elsewhere - interrupting outside provision, or a phonics group or other adult led activity.

Developmentally most children used to, and still can, manage independently at 3. The advantage of the change in regulations means that those that can't are no longer excluded (whether due to SEN, disability or lack of parental guidance). However there seems to be far more 3 year-olds now, with no real issues, they've just not been taught to be independent and it impacts on the learning of all the class. I imagine that's why they are so keen that you are onboard with seeing it as an issue to be cracked as soon as possible.

I think the issue is the withholding/constipation. It’s not clear which it is as she is on movicol? Go back to basics - are her feet supported, is the toilet set the right size for a 3year old, is she constipated/dehydrated etc.

Thanks all, it is useful to know that the pre-school is fairly standard in its approach re toilet use and feedback, and my expectations are off. Locally I don't know of any other places that are structured like this, there's been real shock from most other parents i've spoken to. For context, her nursery (who very much follow EYFS) told us repeatedly that her level of toilet training was developmentally normal and she was doing well and it's meant that preschool has come as all the more of a shock to us all.

The stool withholding is getting better with movicol, I don't think she's had an accident for at least 2 weeks now but in part thats because we're controlling it by giving her movicol at lunch so she does a poo at home in the evening. Next step will be to aim for a poo in the loo at school. Her confidence has increased a lot.

It's a bit disheartening to find attitudes (from the school and the wider public) that it's all down to a lack of training. I'd very much encourage anyone who's posted here about what expectations for toilet use look like in small kids to have a look at Eric. I don't know, but I'd have thought that approaches in the past about excluding kids who had accidents meant exactly that - that kids with toilet issues were excluded and shamed.

Why would you deliberately change the medication so she needs to poo at school ? Wouldn't it be more convenient and comfortable for her to do it at home. I know, as an adult, I would prefer that for myself.

In my experience the children who weren't ready to start school nursery in terms of toilet training weren't excluded. They were given time to work on it before they started.

use this holiday time to get on top of the bowel management. Why is she with holding? Because it previously hurt, not wanting to go at school, unbalanced on the toilet? Or is she constipated and the accidents are due to overflow? What is the stool consistency like?

Does she go all day without doing a poo until the afternoon? If so it’s probably quite uncomfortable and only going to prolong the with holding. Have you tried giving it in the evening so she does a poo first thing in the morning?

Yes completely normal once upon a time.
Always has been the case for mine too.
I think maybe you just need to show her how to do it. Let her have a bit of practice.
I have a newly turned 3 year old totally independent. I certainly was in the 90s. I don't recall any children in my class nursery class (state, deprived area just as some feel only the wealthy children are capable/ it could only happen in private schools ) wearing nappies, we'd all probably have all called them babies and been terribly confused / amused ! It has changed so fast. But children are still just as capable.