Oh Lordy - how would YOU feel if a pre-school worker had this to say about your child?

[Miaou]

OK - bit of background first.

Have a lovely boy in our preschool nursery who is 3.5. However his behaviour is "challenging" to say the least - and from what I understand has improved dramatically since he started attending a year ago. However his behaviour is still regularly so disruptive as to cause major issues in the preschool setting (sabotaging play, running away outside, snack table can sometimes turn into a war zone). As I understand it, at home he has no restrictions placed on him at all, including bedtimes, and quite often goes to bed after 10 or 11pm. Yesterday at snack time he cried and said he was too tired and wanted to go to bed .

My boss wants me to bring this up (ie the going to bed so late) with the parents at our parent consultation meeting next week (think parents evening following report). I am very unsure about this as I feel it is such a personal comment on the way they bring up their child. I also suspect it will fall on deaf ears. Obviously I will do it as tactfully as possible, and I do understand where my boss is coming from in terms of the effect on the others, but I'm uncomfortable about this.

If this was a comment made to you in this setting, how would you feel about it (assuming it is true)? What might make you inclined to make any changes?

I should add - I have already had to have a "friendly word" with the mother about picking up her son ten minutes late on a regular basis so I may not be her favourite person anyway

tbh your boss should be supporting you more with this than just telling you to do it - it is so sensitive - I would go for a 'how can we help you to help him not be so tired' type line.

sorry can't add more than that really.

I think you could state factually that he said he was tired and you tihnk it might be worth trying an earlier bedtime.

I do think people who let their children go to bed at 11pm are barking.

I would phase it differently.

I would say 'we've noticed xx often seems tired and actually says sometimes he is tired and wants to go to bed. How is he about bedtimes at home? Do you manage to get him to bed at a reasonable hour? '

That gives them an opportunity to say for eg 'no he's a real monkey and we don't manage to get him to bed until 10 etc and for you to then spell out the effects of tiredness on his behaviour/ talk about ways of making sure he is rested for nursery.

tbh I reckon there are some major issues in his home life that are contributing to his behaviour. What I would say is that he is regularly tired and has complained of being so, they may volunteer that he doesn't go to bed early...and it may make them think.

I think the reason his behaviour has improved at nursery is that he has stability and set guidelines to follow. Poor wee thing, hope it goes ok.

I would agree that this is going to be upsetting to hear for them - there's no way round this - if they are NOT upset then either you should be an international diplomat or they are even weirder than they sound.

May sound over the top but i would ask the boss to roleplay it with you! and would make sure it's a private, sit-down setting when you talk to them (sure you would anyway, but for your own comfort tbh). Also do have documentary evidence of records of bad days etc.

They have every right to bring up their child how they like but in a nursery setting there does have to be give and take

I agree with Dimpled Thighs. It needs to be a comment about his tiredness and how he doesn't seem to cope too well as he often says he's too tired (then you're reporting what he's said, not what you've deduced). Trouble is his parents have probably gone for the lack of restrictions as a positive parenting choice. But if it is disrupting the other children I don't see how you can avoid saying something. Perhaps gentle suggestion that at least on nights before pre-school he could maybe go to bed a little earlier? you could tell her about what he said at snack time yesterday?

I followed another mum in to my son's pre-school the other day, her little boy was whinging and crying, so she said to him that it was his own fault he was tired, as he hadn't gone to bed til 11.30. How can that be his fault? He's 3 fgs?!

Perhaps also say that him being tired means he's missing out on the full range of activities at preschool.
I knew a little girl who's parents let her stay up with them watching Jurassic Park and other inappropriate films until she dropped off to sleep on the sofa. The playschool and the nanny repeatedly told the parents that she should be going to bed earlier but it didn't make any difference.
A lot of people who work all day often keep their children up later to get to see more of them.

I agree with Puddle about how to phrase it and perhaps also mention it being worth getting him into a good bedtime routine before he starts school so he can really enjoy his time there. It is good idea IME to get these changes done before he has the new routine of school to deal with as well.

Personally I can't wait for 7pm to come to get DS tucked up in bed.

say he was crying at school to go to sleep - ask what happens at home & then suggest they try an early bedtime routine.

I would say something like "X seems to get very tired when he's here. The other day he even asked if he could go to bed."

That leaves the way clear for them to mention if they have problems with him at bedtimes or whether he's awake half the night etc. I think if you start using phrases like "reasonable bedtime" then they may well get defensive or not confide in you.

I speak as a parent with a 4yr-old who was regularly awake until 11pm and later and would frequently wake up during the night too. If someone had asked "Does he go to bed at a reasonable time?" I would've been annoyed tbh. It just comes across as judgemental, which is obviously the last thing you want. Good luck!

Have the parents said in the past that their ds goes to bed late? I'm just wondering how your boss knew.

My almost 2yo DS is having a very clingy and stroppy time at the moment and has been very upset at nursery - not upsetting the others, but being very difficult and demanding. They've been having to tear him away from me when we go in because he's so clingy and I've been an emotional wreck about it. Well, they recently said they'd like to call my HV and ask for her advice about how we could all be doing things diffferently to make it easier for him. I must admit at first I was upset and felt criticised - but after chatting to the HV I've realised it was really helpful and there is a lot I can do - mainly to do with being firmer and giving in to him less (even though he does have a good routine etc.). Amazingly it's already starting to work.

Of course parenting is a touchy subject and people are easily offended but I think these parents do need to realise they're not helping. If you approach it in terms of you all working together to help him have an easier time (after all he's behaving like this because of his tiredness and distress) it may help them come round.

Thank you very much for all your posts. There are some really good points in what you have said and it's all food for thought as to how I bring this up next week. It definitely needs to be addressed, I agree.

My boss is pretty good at being supportive - she is not on site but visits once a fortnight - but I can always talk to her on the phone and ask her advice as necessary.

As hippo said, I think this is a "positive parenting choice" that the parents have made, ie letting the child dictate what happens, hence why I think all my concerns will fall on deaf ears (for example, this morning he was twenty minutes late because he insisted on looking for something then forgot what he was looking for - and made his older brother twenty minutes late for school in the process!! Consequently he missed the opportunity to be today's helper again).

There is also a slight element of lighting the blue touchpaper and then retiring as I am leaving at the end of next week

I can't comment on the behaviour issues but I would say that some of my children were still wanting a sleep somewhere between lunch and teatime at 3-4years of age regardless of what time they went to bed. So him saying he's tired and wanting to go to bed might be a bit of a red herring.

Could be juule, but I know about the late nights for a fact (have heard it from the parents as well as babysitters etc, it's a v. small community!). It's like flicking a switch tbh, every day around half past ten he changes from being (vaguely ) co-operative and happy to being either weepy or disruptive. The only day he didn't was last week when we went on an outing and he behaved brilliantly the whole session - when his mum picked him up she mentioned that she had managed to get him to bed early the night before

I wonder miaou if it would be worth phrasing it along the lines of " We were really impressed with his behaviour on last week's outing. We thought it might be tricky for him but he coped SO well" It gives her a chance to say that they got him to be early the night before and allows you then to say how significantly that improved his beahviour and is it somethign they might think about doing more regularly as it helps him and would porbalby improve their evenings?

I'd probably be mortified BUT I might think about the issue and it might just be the incentive required. Good luck!

I've heard the reception teacher in ds1's class telling parents that their children they should be in bed by 8 on a school night (in a nice way, she has a very nice caring manner). I don't think its unreasonable to point this out at all - no child can be expected to be in a fit state to learn or cope with preschool on 8 hours sleep.

You don't need to over-emphasise the link with bad behaviour, but you could mention the child appears tired and finds it difficult to concentrate.

Head of DS's preschool gives us loads of parenting advice. I always find it really helpful - would much rather get parenting advice from her when DS is 3.5 and nip problems in the bud than have people assume that he is just a 'naughty boy' when he is 5. She does deliver the advice in a very empowering way though. I wouldn't mention the effect of his behaviour on others unless she is really obstructive and helpful - you want to make her feel that your prime objective is to help her son. Definitely the best way to approach this is that he has said he is tired - what does she think about the situation? - let her do the talking.

Think the advice definitely helps, if put across in a helpful, rather than lecturing way. Had a few weeks where dd, about 3yo at the time wasn't going to sleep until 10ish at night (was putting her to bed at 7 but monkey didn't want to sleep). Her nursery/preschool worker told me she'd been very tired in the day (though not disruptive) and asked how she slept at night. Gave me a chance to say honestly that she was having trouble getting off and we could discuss it. They worked hard to keep her up in the day, which helped her sleep quicker at night and the problem sorted itself very quickly.

I know its a slightly different problem but IME I felt fine about the preschool raising the issue and it helped to make sure dd was happy there and at home, and makes care more continuous.

I think it is totally appropriate to bring up the fact taht he is tired during the day. What would I think? Hard to say, as I am not so stupid as to send a preschooler to bed at 10pm and expect him to function at nursery the next day.

Why is he going to bed so late?

I would not be offended if a nursery teacher told me this, but that may be because DD1 is dyspraxic, and part of her condition means her muscle tone isn't as good and she tires quite easily.

Could you phrase it something like: "In order for him to get the most out of pre-school, he might need more sleep on school nights so he's not so tired" and emphasise all the good things he could be doing while he's there.
If it was me, I'd certainly listen to anything DD's pre-school teacher had to say.

I was wondering if there was somewhere for him to lie down and rest at preschool? Just a beanbag in the book corner would do.