Strict nursery having negative effect on my ds

[ErinH]

I'm wondering whether I should take my ds out of his nursery school. He is due to start in reception of the same school in September and I'm worried the school is not right for him. He has always been shy and recently become extremely anxious about going to nursery. His anxiety has got worse over the last few months and he has stopped using the toilet at school (wee and poo) and holds it until he wets himself or I come in to reassure him and help him go. (he has spend the last year at this nursery with no problems). He has become selectively mute over the last few months and now doesn't talk to any adult (other than me) and no children (other than his brother). He has more recently completely withdrawn from playing with the other children at nursery. He says he doesn't want to go to school and is very subdued when he gets there. I don't know what the trigger is but he does talk a lot about how they discipline the children at school (he was humiliated by being made to sit alone on another table during lunchtime for being silly - a last resort, according to his teacher). They have strict rules about running, playing, shouting and manners (they have to wait until all the snacks have been dished out at breaktime before they are told "now you may start". My ds always follows these rules (unless his little 4yr old brain forgets, then he's reminded and gets quite upset by it). The other children tuck into their food before its all been dished out and don't get told off which really upsets ds as he sits patiently waiting. He hates this and says it's boring to have to wait, but he does it. Others don't.) He doesn't seem to be blossoming here, instead he seems down about the tellings off and injustice and is not getting anything out of it. I had a meeting this morning with his teacher who became rather defensive about the school. "I can assure you we're extremely compassionate to the children...it's always a last resort to do this" etc. I just don't know whether his over-sensitive nature suits a strict school like this. Any thoughts?

The nursery doesn't sound very good, TBH.

Snacks should be available and the children eat them when they want; sitting down in the way you describe is not part of the EYFS curriculum.

This concerns me greatly: "being made to sit alone on another table during lunchtime for being silly - a last resort, according to his teacher". I am a teacher who works with children with ESBD, and I wouldn't use this technique as a 'last resort', let alone with NT 4 yos. I would be concerned that a nursery teacher had got to 'last resort' stage at all without calling you in for a meeting about his challenging behaviour

Your DS sounds very much like my DD, who is also very anxious and selectively mute. Her pre school have ben patient and understanding with her, and she likes going (although she's bored, but that's another story!).

I would change nurseries. It may be right for some children, but I know it would not suit my DD, and your DS doesn't sound happy at all

Doesn't sound caring or compassionate to me. It does sound like a nursery I looked at for ds, where I saw the manager taking the mickey out of children and having a go at a boy for something he'd apparently done last week, and I decided no way was ds going there.

If you have any alternative I'd take him away from somewhere where he is clearly unhappy and scared.

thanks tethersend. I cried when I read your reply. From relief, I think. I'm just so concerned for him and having had such a defensive meeting this morning, I felt so vulnerable. I'm glad to get the advice, reassurance and support, so thank you for responding.
and notcitrus, I'm glad it's not just me who thinks this sort of thing is wrong. I must learn to trust my instincts and not tolerate this thing. thank you.

Oh Erin

What are your options for him now? Does he go into reception in September? Is there another nursery with places available?

Some children like the structure of places like this, others need somewhere nurturing. I'd look for somewhere nurturing for your child, he sounds very unhappy. He also sounds very bright if he see's how unfair they are.

I'll have to go to appeal at the local primary school and hope they can take him (he legally doesn't have to go until Jan '13 - so we have a bit of time). I'm wondering whether his anxiety and selective mutism may give us grounds for appeal for medical reasons. In the meantime there's a local under 5s group that seems nice, so I'm going to chat with them on Thursday. We'll all be happier when he's out of there and where he's happy. And he is quite smart, he regularly out-wits me (but perhaps that says more about me than him!)

I'd remove him now, if you can. It's not an environment which is beneficial for him to be in. Use the medical reasons, it may help to speak to your GP also. It will take some time to boost his self esteem so you may need some help with this.

My son outsmarts me all the time. He's G&T and it's very annoying.

I don't think you have grounds for appeal, but I could be wrong; was the school he's at your first choice? You may need to speak to the LEA and see if there are places available anywhere else before you turn his reception place down. Do you have another school in mind?

Post on here asking admissions, prh47bridge and SchoolsNightmare for advice. They have really really helped me with similar issues with DD and applications.

I helped out for a while in a nursery as a favour and I was shocked and upset by the way they disciplined the children compared the the pre-school I ran.

They singled out 3 & 4 year olds for not singing during singing time and forced them to sing on their own and they put children who was misbehaving in with the babies (ie the next group down) and made it known thats what was happening. It was awful and I was glad my children never went there.

I am all for discplining the children but in appropriate ways! I would definitely try to move him, you may just have grounds due to medical reasons like you say. Do you definitely know that the school treats them the same and its not just the nursery part?

It sounds very sad- I would move him.

The child has developed selective mutism while attending her setting. The teacher should be looking for ways to reduce his anxiety and meet his needs better rather than telling you why what she does is appropriate.

It clearly isn't.

She needs to update her practice significantly and start being far more reflective.

Is this a private nursery attached to a prep school by any chance?

Have you looked at the Ofsted report for that setting?

I always assumed that the pre-school attached to our good little village school was equally good. Our pre-school is (not for much longer though) a charity and parents help out sometimes. I wasn't too impressed (few toys, activities, songs...) and circle time consisted of reciting the rules and telling off for not following them. Only then I looked at the Ofsted Report and it was barely satisfacory.

In any case, they were troubled and from Sept a new provider will take over.

That's so awful :( I'd remove him ASAP. You have till Jan til find a school that u like and there's always home schooling if u feel he still isn't quite ready to re enter a school setting or u haven't found anywhere suitable. That nursery sounds truly horrible :( big gigs to ur poor little ds :(

Gigs? Bloody iPhone should say hugs

God that sounds vile.

I'd shoot the lot of them.

TheHouseontheCorner - very perceptive!

Get him out...my DD1 went to what sounds like a very similar setting...one of the teacchers taped a 5 year olds fingers together after she kept biting them....it HAS affected my DD negatively...it is only now that she is in an excellent state school that I am seeing improvements in what I now realise were prblems stemming from this kind of environment.

She was quashed basically...she's a quiet girl naturally...but the fear that places like this run on is bad.

If you are stuck for a place in a state school, I would seriously consider home education rather than stay on. Our school only had any pupils as so many of the local states were over subscribed....kids went in at nursery or reception and then left as soon as a place at a state came up...the ones who stayed right through were generally kids whose parents thought would do better in a smaller school....the ones who had various problems in the main.

Pretty sure my ds couldn't handle a gig right now, he's barely able to walk into a room without panicking!
The ofsted reports 2s across the board. Not sure whether they inspect behavior policies. They do pride themselves on being a caring environment and a great nursery, but that sort of way of controlling the children doesn't suit everyone. My ds2 is there also and the discipline is water off a ducks back for him. He ignores most of the silly rules and blows raspberries at teachers who tell him off, so he could probably handle the restrictions, but my poor ds1 is mortified everytime someone tells him off. His confidence is quashed easily. I took him to a different playgroup this morning with his brother and stayed with him to play. He was nervous to start with, but didn't stop talking, played the whole time and ended up running around and laughing with a few new children. I haven't seen that in months. We'll go back again tomorrow and if he still likes it, then I think we'll move him. Until then, I'm joining him at nursery so I can keep and eye on things and help him out a bit. I do agree with Timandra, she needs to work to reduce the pressure and stress not justify her actions (it's not about her after all). Thanks for all your comments. I keep posting to complete the story. Let's hope for a happy ending.

Sorry for multiple posts! I keep remembering things...my DD went silent from the time she entered....she was three and a half...and she would speak to no adult in the place...only other children.....and now she's 7 and in year three (began in September) she's begginning to speak again...it's taken two whole terms for her teacher to crack her shell.

Your place does not sound great and I would agree with many who say take him out straight away.

The issues I had with my DD though were that she only went 2 mornings to a pre-school that was complacent but not as bad as yours sound. My DD has never spoken to anyone but closest family, other children and our hairdresser.

My DD loved it at first (I really don't know why) and after a term she wasn't keen to go anymore. Provision has now improved quite a bit but DD is still not keen to go, she always wants mummy, even cries when I go to work and she has to stay with dad at the moment! So it may be just her and she may be no different elsewhere?

Its a hard decision to disrupt their routine, especially if they move on to the school next door/same building with us, but if he really hates going there then I wouldn't take him.

What has your pre-school to do with school admissions? Ours are completely independent.

The nursery is part of local independent prep school where we wanted to send him until he was 13. The whole school has a culture of achievement and more pressure than we initially thought (it markets itself as a big caring family, but the discipline is quite an issue for me when they are so young.) The under 7s (pre-prep and nursery) children are taught the school rules and for my ds, he's fearful of being told off. When he's at home he tells me that we can't run inside the house, can't start our meals until everyone is sitting down, can't shout, roar or scream at all. He's so frightened of being told off that he panics if anyone else breaks the rules. He gets so upset if I run up the stairs. He's only just 4 for goodness sake.
The alternative pre-schools are a local independent playgroup that has connections to the local state primary school. It's lovely, but the primary school is full in September. We've gone on the waiting list, but no guarantees on a space becoming available after the school year has started. I could home-school and pre-school him or send him to another primary school or keep him where he is. Really not sure what to do at the moment.

It's so hard when you're in that position...exactly the one I was in! Looking back, I should have moved my DD sooner than the end of year 2 but was afraid of making too many changes in her ife...the thought of moving from pre prep to another not so great state and then to another primary was so overwhelming.

But in retrospect, I would have removed her and done home ed. VERY useful for a child who has been somewhat cowed by the strict system...you may end up doing it until juniors though when more places free up....is there a decent home ed group in your area?

If there is a not so bad state primary, I would b looking into that...sometimes the ones which are not outstanding are still fantastic...and the cash you free up can be spent on tuition later as well as clubs. It's all positive.

Another pre-school has offered him (and his brother) a place and he can start immediately. We visited this morning and said he wanted to go back. I was going to go with them and stay tomorrow at their current nursery and make my decision then, but he says he doesn't want to go. He's only 4 but he seems to have made his mind up that he wants to leave his nursery and go to this new playgroup and then onto the primary school when he's older.

I think you're right, I'll home school him until a place comes up at the primary school that he and I want. I'm certain he won't miss out (he can already read and write so won't be too behind if he starts in Yr1). His brother will start the primary school in Sept 2013 and I can get involved in the playgroup next door so be there for him while he needs me.

Thank you so much for all your advice. Having the view of someone else's hindsight is invaluable and I really appreciate it. I feel much more positive about it and I know he already looks a bit more relaxed.