How valuable is pre-school? Should there be any structure or just let them do whatever?

[gabid]

I am a but confused. My DD (soon 3.5) goes to a pre-school attached to our nice little village school 2 mornings per week. The pre-school have lovely facilities and a big garden with climbing castle shared with the reception class. Sounds perfect, easy transition to class R.

However, the pre-school is a charity and parents go in to help one session per 1/2 term. The session starts with 5 min on the carpet and a little chat. Then DC play. When they feel like it they can have a snack they have brought from home. Then they play, inside or outside. At the end there is another 5 min carpet time where they might sing a song.

DD sometimes finds it difficult to keep herself occupied for 3 hours with the toys on offer. Somethimes there is painting which she loves, but generally lots of puzzles, some building stuff, they have 2 computers, toys change a bit, but DD is not too excited. Should there be a bit more? E.g. more songs with movement, dance, stories, a theme ...??? I am not an EY specialist - that's why I am asking.

I can't see DD being stimulated there 5 mornings per week, especially at age 4+. Another mum with a 4yo DD said her DD was bored and the keyworker suggested to start her on writing .

When I am with my DD we go to places, chat all day, read books, sing, play games, paint, go swimming, stick, cut, meet friends, have fun, go to the library, shopping, use the computer and talk, talk, talk.

I can't really see the point of pre-school other than learning to socialise and line up.

Most preschools I know are more interesting than that - they might have painting, a session of making crafts, or have a session of singing or being read to. There are usually quite a lot of structured activities - ie whether the teacher might show them something to do and get everyone to join in. What you're describing sounds more like a toddler group!

Yes, a few more structured activities, more arts and crafts as part of a theme, e.g. the story of Goldilocks and then make/stick/cut bears, painting a picture, a song and dance to go with it and maybe acting it out with puppets and encourage all children to join - something like that or would that be too much to expect from a pre-school?

DD will be almost 5 when she starts Reception and I would love to send her to the pre-school attached to our lovely infant school, but not like this. We will keep her there for the 2 mornings for now as she meets many of the children she will be in Reception with and to be able to socialise a bit more.

But she is already saying that 'it takes so long'. Other children seem to love it though?

My dcs all went an award winning Montessori and so their pre school was amazing....made reception look really shit though,.

How did you know what they did? Usually I bring her there and pick her up at the end - and have no idea what is going on inbetween. I only know because I stayed for a couple of sessions.

My DS's old nursery always gave feedback and they told me what he did - they are now rated 'outstanding' by Ofsted and I felt happy him being there, but I never stayed so I didn't really know. But it always looked messier, bussier, things on the floor ... as if the children had been busy doing stuff.

Well Montessori is not messy, at all. It taught my dcs independence, produced termly books of their work, including numerous comments when people observed the dcs. At any day you could look through your child's work and see the tally chart of activities they had done. And finally each of my three school age children started school ready to learn and listen, something not many of their class mates seemed to be able to do.

Does seem a little 'lacking'.
Do you have the choice of any others ? Might be worth going to have a look at alternatives.

How about going to view a couple of the alternatives near by and see what they are like? You might see one that looks better.

I thought pre-schools are meant to be using Early Years Foundation Stage as a framwork for learning and development. My DCs nursery keeps records of their progress against EYFS, relying on the observations of the staff. They are always busy and do also sort of different play activities every day.

Our pre-school is a charity, however it is Ofsted registered and run in guidance with Early Years or whatever it is.
Has yours got Ofsted rating? Do they have a mission statement type handbook thing?

My twins go to school Nursery and day is roughly like this:

• Morning routine. Find name and hang it up. Take off coat and hang on your peg. Find milk label and label milk.
• Indoor activities. Always painting, drawing, gluing, cutting, sand, water, bricks, dressing up, playdough. The toys are not the sort we would have at home like the bricks are great, full size soft ones. The last few days they've had chunks of wood to drill into (handheld drill) and screw in screws! Or they put large tweezers and little glass shapes in the sand with pots and the kids pick up the glass things with tweezers

During this time the kids 'key workers' take 1 kid at a time to do an activity with them eg. write their names, do jigsaw etc.

• Outside time
• Snack time, they sit down and help themselves from bowls in the middle
• Group time. The class is in groups - rough ability based and they have a small lesson, counting on fingers, doing 'sounds'
• Carpet time.

I think they may also attend assembly sometimes. They were in all rehearsals for Christmas show etc.

Perhaps your pre-school is already doing some of these things. If not, there are some which are easy to introduce. If the toys are a bit 'boring', maybe they need to put the price of a session up in order to buy into some better/ more education toys, which kids may not have access to at home.

I think your goldilocks ideas sound a bit too structured, expecting them to all do the same thing at a specific time. I think structured things need to be limited, but there's loads and loads of 'play' which is very educational - water in pipes, pumps etc. etc. which kids can choose to play with or move onto something else when they're ready.

Reason I know what happens is that I stay for 10 mins at the beginning, and then walk past the playground at various points. Plus they tell me!

They do have a book they call 'Learning Story' or something like that and they are aparently following the EYFS curriculum, however, I lost faith in the way this is produced.

Of course, 3 and 4 year olds always do something. They take pictures and match it up to some learning goal. Some time ago DD's key worker told me that she chatted to DD about (can't remember) but when she said that she has written it in her Learning Story I was a bit disappointed as it seems to me that this is the only reason she talks to DD (DD takes some time to warm to adults, so would not approach them in her first couple of months there) and while I was there no-one but me approached her.

Also one day DD came home excitedly saying her keyworker had done her handprint. I thought it was a fun activity, when a week later we got her handprint printed on a postcard as a fundraising thing - so it wasn't a fun activity for the kids, but just the one handprint for a fundraiser.

DS's nursery does pre-school sessions, but is a bit far away for us now. We looked at one other, there seemed to be a lot more going on, but the staff ratio was a lot lower and the space they had was tiny in comparisson.

If there is a high staff ration, what are they doing if not spending time with the children?

Well, if she's achieving the goals and moving through them, that's great!

I think that is the way that staff are meant to observe development. The children lead the way (using all the different play opportunities provided by the setting) and the staff document (using photos and written notes) the evidence that proves the child has met a certain goal.
It's not as though the staff set the children a goal and then test to see if they pass or fail.

The staff in DCs nursery seem to always have a pad of post it notes in their hands for jotting down what all the children are up to.

I am not sure about the EY goals, where DD is and where she should be on that, but as far as I am concerned she is doing fine and developing nicely for a 3.5 yo, however, I can't see how the pre-school is contributing much to that. I would expect them to be a bit more pro-active.

Might google the EY goals though.

they learn through play and at this stage there should be a high proportion of child led activity
the adults support the play and move it on through observation and interaction when appropriate
have a chat with your child's key person if you are concerned, their response should give you an idea of how well they know and cater for your dd
as for the learning journals they vary from setting to setting
I'd be more keen to see that the adults know your dd as an individual and are aware of the next steps that are appropriate for her

MerryMarigold - for 20 kids there are about 3-4 staff + a parent helper. The other place we have seen the ratio was 8:1 and really small premisis. They do interact with the children but it seems more re-active than pro-active. There are a good number of DC who come, chat and ask for help, but not my DD.

My DD will just potter around, she will chat to other children, but would never go and ask an adult. While I was there non of the staff spoke to DD (maybe because I was there). There was also a little boy who played with foam letters, he knew them all, but that was all he did all session and I was the only person who sat with him twice .

I am aware that the pre-school is having difficulties and someone from the Council is going in to support them, however, the manager has been there for 20 years and is I think somewhat stubborn.

I am trying to form a picture for myself of what exactly to expect from a good pre-school.

ninah - that's a good idea, I could ask question to see how well they know her.

they are well within ratio then but agree the interaction does not sound great.
talk to them.

oops, x post
personally I like the traditional village preschool type setting, they are becoming rare round here as they get take into schools. you can tell a lot from talking to the key worker, how well s/he knows dd, and how well s/he is on top of the learning that is happening

My DD's nursery sounds to have a lot more going on. At the moment it is fairly structured as she is only 17 months. In her room there is a series of activities on offer in order through the day, though if a child isn't interested then they can go and take out some toys or do other free play activities. As they get older it becomes more child-led, but I think that this is by having a number of different activities available (plus the usual toys and books) and allowing children to choose what to do. Due to the shape of the building they don't have free flow to the outside play area, so going outside is a distinct part of the day. They do a wide range of craft activities, singing, dancing, listening to stories, messy play, dressing up plus lots of things I probably don't know about. They also have a lot of themes going on which inspire the activities. This week has had Polar Bear Day (27th Feb), World Book Day (1st March) and St David's Day (1st March) so they have done some painting or sticking related to polar bears, dressing up (and hopefully reading) for world book day and making daffodils for St David's day. The staff are always engaging with the children and each child has an individual target at all times which the keyworker will work on with the child. For example DD's is to point at things in books when asked, so the keyworker must be spending some time reading with DD individually or in small groups to encourage it. This probably ensures that the keyworkers engage with all of their children, not just the ones that seek the interaction.

I can see, a lot more would be possible. A friend told me their pre-school have 6 different activities to choose from, each with a playworker, then they have a snack and afterwards 6 different activities.

I asked my DD today whether she has ever climbed on that lovely castle they have in the pre-school garden. She said: 'Castle? Which castle? I haven't seen it! It's big!! I have never seen anyone climb on it though. Aparently they need 4 staff to man it.

"The staff in DCs nursery seem to always have a pad of post it notes in their hands for jotting down what all the children are up to."

Jesus, is that what nursery staff are reduced to?