How valuable is pre-school? Should there be any structure or just let them do whatever?

[gabid]

I am a but confused. My DD (soon 3.5) goes to a pre-school attached to our nice little village school 2 mornings per week. The pre-school have lovely facilities and a big garden with climbing castle shared with the reception class. Sounds perfect, easy transition to class R.

However, the pre-school is a charity and parents go in to help one session per 1/2 term. The session starts with 5 min on the carpet and a little chat. Then DC play. When they feel like it they can have a snack they have brought from home. Then they play, inside or outside. At the end there is another 5 min carpet time where they might sing a song.

DD sometimes finds it difficult to keep herself occupied for 3 hours with the toys on offer. Somethimes there is painting which she loves, but generally lots of puzzles, some building stuff, they have 2 computers, toys change a bit, but DD is not too excited. Should there be a bit more? E.g. more songs with movement, dance, stories, a theme ...??? I am not an EY specialist - that's why I am asking.

I can't see DD being stimulated there 5 mornings per week, especially at age 4+. Another mum with a 4yo DD said her DD was bored and the keyworker suggested to start her on writing .

When I am with my DD we go to places, chat all day, read books, sing, play games, paint, go swimming, stick, cut, meet friends, have fun, go to the library, shopping, use the computer and talk, talk, talk.

I can't really see the point of pre-school other than learning to socialise and line up.

Hm, post it notes? I would like to see them offer some stimulating stuff and interact pro-actively, not just put out a few toys and deal with anyone who approaches them. Not convinced about the post it notes.

"I can't really see the point of pre-school other than learning to socialise and line up."

I use post-it notes to record what the children do/say and use them to plan the curriculum. The curiculum is holistic and can be delivered in a variety of ways. The children are subjected to continuous provision, which means the same areas are always available as research has shown that chjildren learn best when they can revisit and extend their learning. There should be a balance of adult-led and child-initiated activities, with the children's interests being used to plan activities and learning opportunities. The children should be able to go outside and there should be opportunities for children to rest and relax if they want to.
Our children have access to the following areas:-
book area/comfy area
sand
water
malleable/pladough
music
home corner/role play
construction
small world
painting
workshop (craft)
mark-making
A good pre-school will duplicate these areas outside. These areas are stocked with resources that reflect the children's interests (which is where the post-its come in). The resources can be changed and added to (we call these enhancements)
The staff should be tracking the children's progress in the 6 areas of learning
communication, language and literacy
problem-solving, numeracy and reasoning
knowledge and understanding of the world
physical development
creative development
personal, social and emotional development
All areas are of equal importance. (until the new framework comes in, anyway)
This is a really good poem

What did you do at Pre-school today?

What did you do at Pre-school today?
Well, I sat at the dough table and rolled the dough in my hands. Lucy said hers was a snake but mine, mine was a worm. The lady talked about long ones, short ones and medium sized ones, and Sarah rolled her dough so long it went right over the edge of the table. (And nobody said, ?What are you going to make?a cake would be nice.?)
Yes, but what did you do?
I played on the climbing frame and do you know I can jump off the very top step.
Yes, but did you do anything today?
Sarah and me went to the paint table. It was lovely, all gooey and slippery on our hands. We made lots of patterns with our fingers and elbows. Sarah had yellow paint and I had red and Mummy do you know what, if you mix red and yellow paint together it goes ORANGE! (And nobody said ?What a mess you?ve made.?)
Yes, but what else have you done?
At milk time a big boy pushed me over and I bumped my head. The lady picked me up and loved me better.
And then did you do anything?
The lady sang a new song and I can remember it, it was about our fingers, thumbs and toes.
But did you do anything today?
I made a lovely traily pattern in the sand and then Sarah and me had a race to see who could put the sand in the sand-wheel the quickest.
So what did you do at Pre-school today?
We sang ?Happy Birthday? to Nicholas and then the lady read us a story.
But did you do anything today?
Yes, when the lady said ?It?s time to tidy up?, I quickly painted you a picture cos I knew you?d say?
?What did you do at Pre-school today??

It sounds from what you are saying that 1) it isn't the most exciting preschool/Nursery programme around, 2)maybe its set-up (being a charity and having parent helpers - although I'm not sure what how between being a charity versus charitable status applies for this school - I thought most private schools and preschools had charitable status with a few exceptions) means it's not run at a very proactive level, but more as a larger version of a childminder for parents to have a few hours to themselves in the day!

Some parents and their children are happy enough with this set-up; if that was a place that my own child had enjoyed going to I won't have minded. However, I know that some parents will want more out of a pre-school setting, especially if they feel they are paying a fair amount for their child to go there, and some parents and primary schools expect a child to have "learnt" a lot from their Nursery year (ie at your daughter's age) - learning phonics, getting to know numbers, having a go at starting to write. I myself don't, but there are some who do.

Lastly, it sounds like it isn't as interesting or as enjoyable for your DD as you and she hoped - which for me would be the key thing. Whether it is due to the way the staff interact (or don't interact) with her, or whether it is due to the lack of stimulating activities or both, it doesn't sound as though your DD has a good impression of it. If she feels bored now, she may expect school always to be boring.....which is not a great start to schooling! Even if all you expect her to do is to learn to socialise and line up, it is rather odd that in a decent school that she should be bored - if there are interactive activities: eg making things, or joining in an activity like puppets or drama, it shouldn't be boring for her. Might also - if you haven't already - be worth asking her why she finds it "takes so long": does she get tired? is she hungry? does she miss home/you?

For that reason alone, I'd start to look for another place. As far as primary schools are concerned anyway, it isn't supposed to matter which nursery you went to - many children are turned down by the primary school attached to their existing nursery, and many are accepted who never went to the affiliated nursery. And you have even more flexibility for independent schools. As she is only going 2 mornings a week, it won't be a problem for her to attend a different preschool for the other 3 (or just 2) mornings. She will get EYFE subsidy so it shouldn't be as huge a financial burden as if you had to pay the whole thing. If she is bored there too, it might be that she is simply a little too young to be away from home, and will be ready for that next year. If she isn't, then you know what the answer is......

Wrt to the 4 year old little girl whose mum you spoke to - A preschool should be able to start a 4 year old who is ready for more stimulation on writing during the school session, and not rely on the parent to do it at home.

My DCs went to preschool in the US. The biggest class any of them was in had 14 children, with a teacher and an aide, so quite nice. They went for 2.5 hours, three times a week. They were all four (real school starts at 5 in the US), and two of them were already reading. I could have sent them to preschool at three but I couldn't see the point of it. They were doing perfectly fine at home.

There were little round tables and small chairs for table work and they spent a little time every day drawing, tracing, colouring, 'writing', using pencils, markers, crayons, and glitter glue. They focused on writing their names and producing identifiable shapes. They also painted and made collages under the direction of the teacher. There was scissors work every day and the place was festooned with their artwork. They made craft items using toilet rolls, cotton balls, ribbons, you name it, following directions and learning left from right, terms like above, below, behind, beside, in front of, etc.

They spent time every day using clay and small toys, beading, lacing, shape sorting, pegboards, working on puzzles, making dough that they brought home to bake, and they also used blocks of various sizes and textures (giant cardboard blocks, wood, stickle bricks, duplo and lego). There was lots of counting of items in ones, twos, fives, tens, guessing quantities, figuring out what was heavier, simple science experiments using water, oil, food colour, ice, etc. They hatched butterflies and released them in the church garden. They grew plants in pots (basil and other herbs) which they then took home. Every so often, they went outside for a walk and brought back a few things to talk about and examine. There were toys for role play and a sand table and water table. Getting to play with the water table was the reward for being very co-operative.

They had circle time every day and show and tell every week. Show and tell was taken seriously and everyone had to listen politely. Once a week a parent or older sibling went to the class and read some stories to them while the teacher filled out the weekly evaluation at her desk. They discussed things like the season, the weather, the day of the week, what month it was, at circle time, and learned a few songs, some in different languages, e.g. a Christmas song in Norwegian, a Swahili work song, a Spanish children's song. The teacher read a few books for them every day towards the end of the session and they discussed the stories, with the teacher asking questions and the children encouraged to raise their hands before answering. There were often props to go with a story that the children could pass around and examine or even eat, like gingerbread for the story of the gingerbread man (Jan Brett book).

It was very organised, with snack time and bathroom and hand washing at certain times every day. At the end of each activity time slot, the teacher gave a warning that they would be putting away their toys or materials soon and doing a new activity. They were expected to learn to transition without a fight, to put away their things in the right place and be co-operative. At the start of the day they were expected to take off their outerwear and hang it up neatly on their own hook and at the end, they had to put on all their own jackets, hats, scarves, gloves, snowboots, etc., without help. Since it was a Catholic parish school they had a few simple prayers to start and end each day and before snack time ('Thank you God for our school and our friends and help us to share', 'Thank you God for our food and drink and help us not to spill', 'Thank you God for helping us to learn today.')

I would have loved to send them to a Montessori preschool but alas it was too expensive. However, they loved going and the teacher was a kind and warm person. They were very well prepared for school etiquette for the next year.

Hello mathanxiety, long time no see - can I ask if this is state school? (what they call public school in the US?) If so, it's very good provision - class of 14 and the activities you describe sound like an above average private infant school/reception class in Britain. Only difference would be that there usually is no parent/sibling involvement on a regular basis.

No, it was private, a parish school. The local public (state) school didn't offer preschool, as they are not obliged to provide education for anyone until kindergarten (age 5 mostly). The parish preschool was seen by the school marketing committee as a fantastic 'gateway drug', if you will, to attract families to the school and thus keep enrollment high (the school also provided good quality 7am to 6pm childcare with children walked to their classes and back again from age 3 on). The local public schools were very good so there was a bit of competition.

The parents were encouraged to participate if they could in part so that they could let the teacher catch up on her paperwork, and also because they tended to be a varied bunch and it provided a chance to introduce the children to people of different cultures, and children's literature from different places. I read some Irish stories, and there were Polish, Russian, Nigerian, Chinese and Phillippino books too (in English or translated by the parent). For older siblings, reading to the little ones was a way of earning class points and being chosen was considered an honour. The school had a system where older children were assigned a buddy in a younger class and they did activities together, ate pizza lunches together, etc.

kipperandtiger - DD settled in great into pre-school. I was worried as she is very mummy-focused and takes a long time to even look at a stranger, let alone talk to them. I stayed with her in September and she didn't seem to need me after 2 sessions and she loved it. Toys seemed varied then, but they slowly disappeared. In January, she started being less enthusiastic, I observed that she still hides behind me when one of the assistants tried to chat to her - that tells me she is just being left to it and no-one really tries to befriend her - she might feel lonely.

I do expect her to learn there, socialising would be an important area, as well as many other things - but not reading and writing. I feel too many DC are pushed into it far too early in this country (my DS is one of them). I can explore that with her if she shows an interest. But as mathsanxiety describes there are so many things they can be doing and learning, which I may not think of or may not be able to do. I got some ideas from your post, e.g. a game with prepositions, putting things on, under, next to a table - I think both of my DC would enjoy that.

Another area would be language, DD is bi-lingual German, I don't speak English to her, therefore I thought it would be very important that there is some pro-active input, e.g. stories read, songs, games.

As I said, there are difficulties in that pre-school, someone from the Council goes in to support them. There is a meeting tomorrow, and I think (hope) they announce changes to the management. I think, if there is a new experienced manager we many keep her there and extend the sessions if it works well (they do have great facilities, huge garden and big double classroom for 26 kids max, but there are never more than 15-20). If the current manager stays I can't see much hope though because she is stubborn and set in her ways. In that case I don't think we will keep DD there, maybe we have to take her a bit further, e.g. DS's nursery/pre-school, that's a 20 min drive vs 5 min walk.

insancerre - your post makes it clear that you may see DC just pottering about for much of the time, and yes, I am aware that this is important and that they are learning. Also, that may look to an outsider that there is no planning and effort from the staff when there is a lot.

However, in order to develop many of these areas you need some input, especially language and communication - that does not happen at our pre-school. Also, they seem to shy away from things that make too much of a mess - these activities we see rarely.

Gabid, it sounds badly managed and seems as if the manager and staff are just phoning it in. Toys should not be disappearing. There should be both mess and clearing up of mess by the children. The absence of mess would be a big red flag for me. It is a sign of lazy and unenthusiastic staff. It might mean a change of leadership is in order, because morale problems start at the top. If you are left with the same management after the meeting, then I would take my child out. I don't think from what you said of her demeanour that she is happy. The staff are phoning it in.

There should be interaction between the children and the staff -- when activities are not organised that means less interaction, fewer chances to teach (as in the prepositions) or to get the DCs to follow instructions that have more than one component ('put the baby dolls away in the big doll box and then put the barbies away in the blue bin') that might stretch them a bit. I think the ideal is to have a mix of organised activity and free play or pottering around.

At DD's Pre-school (she is 2.8) they do art (she even calls it 'art' when we ask her if she's drawn any pictures that day - ), they do a lot of counting, have lots of stories, do lots of singing and start to learn the alphabet and writing.

But DD's pre-school is very focused on the academic and like a school (they even have to wear a uniform with a hat and a blazer). It's not for everyone but DD seems to love it. She does two full days (8am until 3.30pm) but from September will go to 4 days Monday-Thursday. She has been with a CM since 4 months old so she's used to doing full-days away from me ( but financially no option) and because she is going to be a younger starter in Primary School (she'll be 4.3) I wanted to help her out a bit by getting her used to the school environment as she's quite quiet.

But from what I hear of other Pre-schools, it does sound like your one could be doing a bit more...

Thank you mathanxiety - I thought it did sound like a private school. The scenario of toys disappearing doesn't bode well! Gabid - would you know if any staff have left and been replaced between Sept and Jan? Sounds like a bit of laziness in the new setup.

I also think that if a nursery school/preschool/nursery isn't doing the messy activities then I'd wonder, what's the point of going.....I remember taking my child to toddler groups (between £2.50 and £3 a session so cheaper than a nursery) where they even had messy activities, even though it was the children's choice to take part or not. Painting, sand table, play dough.....there were aprons provided to stop the clothes from taking on the same colours as the art! (There are ways to do messy activities without the premises and participants' clothes being ruined.) The staff member running them was always very encouraging and positive to the children, and artwork was always laid out carefully to dry and the child was encouraged to take it home, to show his/her parent/s. The children were always enthusiastic about going if the mum/childminder/au pair could take them (it was the sort of area with a lot of working parents).

Even if they don't do a lot of formal "teaching" the children can still learn a lot by having sessions of singing nursery rhymes and stories read to them. Hope your DD starts having a more enjoyable time, Gabid, whatever you decide to do.

I run a pre-school and have done for 4 years. We are a charity community pre-school and when I took over it was very similar to how you describe but is very different now (not just due to me but to a fab team of staff).

Basically we have welcome time in the morning, the staff discuss what the topic is, we do a makaton 'sign' of the week, count the children and adults and do the usual special occasions/birthdays. This is about 10 mins top.

Next they will sometimes do sticky kids/dancing activities then free play, then snack. There is free flow from inside to outside, outside is set up as an outdoor classroom again with all learning areas available. The children have a tidy up song and they help to tidy up after free play etc.

All activities are set up according to the room plan linking all activities to the Early Years goals. There will be a craft activity, role play corner, numeracy table, literacy table and lots more toys.

After snack there will be a set 'keyworking' time, this will be an age/ability appropriate planned activity children will do with their keyworker in their groups. The children come together at the end of the session and do the goodbye song.

Observations are taken of all children throughout the day, a lot of artwork/craft stuff is sent home. All children have a learning journey where photos, work and observations are kept. We have a termly parents evening with reports showing the children's achievements within the EYFS targets, next steps are discussed and agreed with parents for each area.

Yes a lot of the pre-school day should be free play but the staff should ensure children are engaged at all times. There should be a routine to the session as that is so important to get the children ready for school but there shouldn't be a long period of time where the children are expected to do just one thing.

Forgot to say, they have group stories (sometimes split into 2-3 years and 3-4 years depending on mix of children that day) so there is still structured activities in addition to keyworking and free play.

After just reading mathanxiety's post we actually do a lot of these things in our pre-school and we are just a charity run school, it all depends on the staffs imaginations and experience, the children don't really realise they are learning as much as they are but they are still always learning through play! There should be a huge variety of things to do for them - sometimes I wish some of our parents were as interested as you to actually find out what their DC's do whilst in our care as I'm sure half of them have no idea or don't care.

Just thought I'd pop in as devils advocate. I understand why you're not happy with toy numbers dwindling/DD not being comfortable with nursery helpers, so can see something needs to happen... and it sound lovely what you do together:

"When I am with my DD we go to places, chat all day, read books, sing, play games, paint, go swimming, stick, cut, meet friends, have fun, go to the library, shopping, use the computer and talk, talk, talk."

BUT, shouldn't children be able to occupy themselves for a couple of hours if surrounded by toys, not to mention other children too? Being able to entertain yourself is a valuable life skill. Maybe it isn't such a bad thing that she is left to her own devices for a while every day?

Thanks for your thoughts!

MsMarple - yes, I can see your point. However, after having played and done all those things with DD all morning there still is plenty of time where I just ignore her (for my own piece of mind), e.g. when cooking I don't always want her to 'help', when cleaning, when reading with DS ... there are lots of times when she takes herself off to do roleplay or amuses herself - and I am glad of it as it gives me a break! However, I wouldn't send her off to a pre-school 5 mornings per week to just amuse herself with the toys available for 3 hours.

lou2321 - thanks, an opinion form a professional and lots of ideas of what could happen. There seems to be quite a bit of structure in your place.

This week I have been to help out at the pre-school again. There were more toys out (I did metion the dwindling toys to DD's keyworker a while ago), but still 3 hours and no-one except me interacted with DD. I tried to play with other DC and saw DD at an activity table with 2 staff and 2 DC, but no-one invited her to join. At the start of the session during the 5 min carpet time there was some telling of about not listening, and at the 5 min carpet time at the end there was some telling off about not having listened, then 2 half-hearted songs.

I did look at DD's learning story and her key worker asked whether there was anything specific she could do - I said, 'talk to her' (as I don't speak English to her this would be an area where they could make some difference). She seemed a bit taken aback and said that DD seems very happy playing most of the time. Hm, DD still comes home saying 'it takes soo long'?

Again, the meeting I mentioned earlier in the thread is tomorrow, it wasn't last week - so again, I think if the manager goes we will try to keep her there. But there must be someone new with experience and new ideas, like lou2321 maybe.

Lou2321's pres-school sounds very good, that would a lovely set up for any child. I just think that the current place that Gabid's DD goes to sounds more like a slightly crowded childminder's home. Even church toddler groups where the session costs no more than 1 or 2 pounds have more going on than what she is describing. It sounds like the people running it haven't been very well trained or briefed. Even if a child is happy there, there should be some interactive activity - even if it's just building towers out of Duplo bricks if they can't stretch to doing art or crafts- and chatting to the kids about what they are building. For most singing sessions, they can at least fit in 6-7 songs - if the staff/volunteers don't find it interesting, you can buy or make finger puppets to add actions (eg animals during "Old Macdonald" or a duck for "Five Little Ducks went swimming one day"), or even get different children to hold up a puppet for the appropriate verse.

The one thing I would say is that TOO much structure is also not good, children that age have small concentration spans so also steer clear of settings that have a structured/planned activity where children are sat working for more than approx 10 minutes also. Lots of variety and friendly staff is something to look for.

The thing we love at our setting is often people come in off the street to visit and they instantly register as they like the community and friendly feel of the pre-school, if you start looking around at other places make sure you visit whilst there are children there.

Pre-school is a chance for your child to relax, play, interact, socialise and have fun. Not learn to read and write, or have multiple activities and a programme of events time-tabled out for them.

When they go to school and are shattered every day, and have spellings to learn, and homework to do, they will come home (like mine did!!) and say "Mummy, can I go back to pre-school just so I can play for 1 day"

Yes, but they shouldn't be bored there either - 3 hours of free play with no adults making an effort to interact if not approached.

Lots of activities in dgs preschool as well as crafts the do lots of pre reading and writing activities. He is 3.1 now and can hold a pencil properly,write the first letter of his name and recognise some words. They learn some phonic sounds and do counting and number games. They also have garden sessions with planting and tending seeds. He has a book to bring home and look at/talk about. It is a super place and the dc are never bored.

Hi Gabid, I came on here as I've been told my my ds's nursery (he's 3) that he's been moping around and they are a bit worried about him as he seems to want adult attention quite a bit. I sort of feel the same, well why don't they talk to him more then. They say he used to go off and play with the other children more. they have some new ones start and think he might find them a bit rowdy.

Today he brought in a little train and one of the workers, who is always bubbly, said, shall we get the train set out then, and several of them played with that. There was water, paint, etc available and a book corner but the others seemed to be kind of wanting a bit more input.

I don't kniow what to think really. I did some training with the foundation stage a few years ago as a teacher. I think there maybe needs to be more of a balance between the children doing their own thing and adult directed / adult interaction. I wonder if this focus on the child initiated side has meant adults standing back and observing and feeling that is more important than interacting.

I felt a bit sad for ds as they seemed concerned about him and his moping. I am thinking of looking around too and can't afford a private school pre-prep, so we have either the school nursery class which I'm unsure of as is mixed with reception as part of a 'foundation stage unit' or a charitable pre-school in the back of a house.

Wish it was possible to test it out for a week or two...

Hm, I dared to speak to another parent at the pre-school who has a 4 year old attending 5 mornings and says she is bored (I don't really want to discuss that as I feel its not fair bad-mouthing the place with other parents - they go in and see for themselves and if they are happy, fine). She had similar feelings but her DD has one term left, so there is not much point in changing anything.

Yesterday's meeting was cancelled by the way.

Somehow I feel if we don't find a place she actually enjoys going to in Sept. then I keep her with me more. We enjoy our time together, and if I have a look at the EY guidelines a bit then I am sure I can stimulate her enough to be ready for school, e.g. today we spent all day at home as the car broke and we couldn't go to playgroup. We played a couple of games (taking turns, counting, and whatever else you learn) we baked a cake, I read her 2 stories and we chatted about them, she played with her farm farm for ages, helped hanging out the washing, played computer games (counting eggs and sweets - she has recently learned to use a mouse), played in the garden with sand and water, picked all our daffodils , she said she needed them for her princess show! Went to the shops and she bought a magazine 'Princess World' and we did some matching, following lines with finger, searching ... I am sure all that could be matched to EYFS goals in some way.

I wonder if its so important to have an EYFS professional observe her for 3 hours and match what she does to their learning goals.

Mharhi - could you ask to stay with your DS for a session maybe? I wouldn't underestimate what he learns in your company either.

Gabid, I think your day with your DD sounds fantastic but I have to echo what has been said in an earlier post that it is so important for children to learn the skill of playing on their own as well and investigating things for themselves. It sounds as if you do let her do this but its hard to tell whether she does it completely independantly or with you?

My niece always had trouble doing this as my sister-in-law planned every day in a similar way to you so when she wanted to sit and have a chat with us and a well deserved cuppa her DD was constantly by her side wanting her to play or do stuff with her and has never really improved that much in that way and is now 7!

I do think it is important for your DD to be in a pre-school or nursery setting if you can find a nice one as the independance from you will help her to settle into school as 5 whole days a week is a lot to be away from you but she clearly would get lots of stimulation at home too, just make sure its in the right areas and remember to give her time to just sit and watch tv and just play with her toys and with friends.

lou - I also cleaned half the house, while DD was pottering about. DD can occupy herself well in comparisson to her brother (almost 7). DD does roleplay and she plays with toys whereas DS sounds a bit like your niece, he never did roleplay, or played with many toys. He always wanted us or friends to play with - non stop! Now he plays looots of lego - by himself!

Still, I would ideally like her to go to a pre-school where there is a good balance between free play and structure - but the main thing is that she is enjoying it though.