Feel a bit humiliated over toilet training (long, sorry)

[rosemarycottage]

Hello!

I'm not new here but it's been a long time (about two years) since I've posted and that was under a different name. Anyway, introductions over, time for my question.

My ds, three and a half, has been very slow to toilet train when it comes to his poos. He's great with his weeing, takes himself off to the toilet and the like, dry at night and so on. But despite trying a gentle laissez-faire approach (which worked for weeing), then when that didn't work, followed by lots of rewards for trying (as he hadn't even done one on the toilet at that point) and finally screaming at him like a banshee, he continuously soils his underpants.

To me, this is a developmental thing, he's just later than a lot of other kids, it's not a huge issue at home, and just as he was coming up to nursery he had - finally - started to do one or two poos in the potty, and at least, had started to tell me regularly, immediately he soiled himself.

The nursery said that if a child wasn't fully toilet trained, they'd give them additional support (taking them every half hour), so I asked for this on the home visit. Well, come the first day, I dropped him off, having failed to persuade him to do a poo beforehand, he was fine about saying goodbye, no tears and the like.

But when I got back to pick him up, I was asked to stay behind with one other parent, and it felt very much like "stand in the naughty corner". My ex husband (ds' Dad) had come with me and we both felt the same (he is much less sensitive than me so if he felt like that... y'know?)

The nursery teacher made a big point of telling us that ds had soiled himself "and didn't even seem to care". Well, at home ds really does care, in fact, he's quite upset about it. I told her this, and that he'd done one or two in the toilet recently, and that he needed reminding and taking, and she said "well, one or two in a toilet is hardly toilet trained is it?"

I have to be completely honest. I went home and I told ds off, I really lost it, I screamed at him, about which I feel horribly guilty. I must admit, I'm fed up with this whole toilet training thing; I know ds is just taking a little longer on this one developmental thing and I do totally understand that a child that soils himself is a really difficult thing for a nursery to deal with, but I don't like the way I felt humiliated (the other Mum who was there, whose dd had wet herself, said she felt similarly). As if somehow by doing that I would Buck My Ideas Up and Train Him Immediately (like I haven't been trying that!)

I want to ask a few things. First, is this normal? Do lots of nurseries do this? And (I guess, I hate to say it but...) AIBU to be a bit pissed off about this? (Does MN still have the epic AIBU threads it did a few years ago?) But also, any tips on getting him to poo in the blasted toilet? I mean, pre-nursery, it was slowly starting to happen... (also it's not helped by the fact he's with me afternoons as I work mornings, when he's not with me his with ex-MIL, and some evenings / nights he's at his Dad's too, and I'm not sure this has helped him learning to use the toilet)

And finally, if this continues, and if I do feel that I'm not getting support from the nursery that I need, how easy/difficult is it to change to a different one? I realise a child who isn't completely potty trained is difficult to deal with but I'd hope for a bit more support and a bit less of a telling off!

I really feel for you. I know how hard this is to deal with. The approach the nursery took was not great, I agree.

With regard to the nursery - would it be worth having a meeting with them to discuss your son's issues. It may just be one member of staff who dealt with it badly and they may be supportive on the whole. If your son seems otherwise happy, then it seems a shame to move him.

My DD's nursery had lots of children in this position and they were very helpful and supportive, though I know they found it difficult as the majority of the children were wetting and sometimes soiling themselves.

With regards to the soiling - DD1 was like this and we got into all sorts of difficulties dealing with it. DD2 seemed to be going the same way (refusing to poo on her potty). I decided to just constantly reassure her, so even if she did a poo in her pants I would say "that's great, next time it would be brilliant if you could do it on your potty." She seems to have overcome her anxiety (fingers crossed).

I don't blame you for getting cross - I've been there. But it really doesn't make any difference. i think for some reason they are frightened of sitting on a potty or toilet and they need to get over this with support. Deep breaths, count to ten and reassure him.

Thank you - I didn't realise that about late toilet training. So it is something that would require support rather than a stern telling off. Any idea how I would approach the nursery regarding this, then?

The nursery is out of order.

Have you tried bribery for the pooing in the toilet.

Thanks nigglewiggle, I know you're right, it's hard to be so reassuring sometimes but I fear I did a bit of damage when I screamed at him the other day. I was very nasty with him and he cried. :( Horrid me, let it all get to me (I think the whole thing was tied up with some general ambivalence about nursery anyway, which I was trying hard to hide).

It's early days yet (today is his third day there, and I'm back at work so his Nan - exMIL - dropped him off, I'll be picking him up at half three) so I will wait and see how he goes with the rest of the whole nursery thing (is it normal for him to just be like Kevin the Teenager about it and tell me he "doesn't know" what he did and that he did "nothing", and so on?) before really considering moving him. On all the visits it did seem like a lovely place but I suppose the recruitment open day is always different than the job!

I think, I'd just like the option of changing nurseries if I can't get this resolved. I do very much realise it's a complete PITA for them if they have to change dirty underpants and it takes them away from other children, I do, and I sympathise, but as justaboutawinegumoholic said, if it's a developmental delay, it shouldn't be treated any differently, really, to (say) being a late talker, or something like that?

Appletrees, ohhh yes. Bribery and corruption. I mean, the weeing sorted itself out with none of that, so I tried the same approach to pooing but when it didn't work I did everything from putting it the potty in front of the television to even giving him sweeties for so much as trying (squeezing, basically). Heck, I even let him watch the (previously forbidden) Ben 10: Alien Force after he'd done his first poo in the potty!

I feel a bit cross at myself to be honest, he was just starting to make progress in the days before he started nursery, we'd had a few poos in the potty, he'd come to me and told me he needed to go, and then he started, messed up and I have quite probably set him back by screaming and shouting at him. Very silly.

It's not that unusual for a 3 yo to still have accidents. DS1 was 3.7 when he was finally potty trained, he's just started reception and had an accident on Monday Sounds like your nursery dealt with it very badly. If you have other reservations about the nursery I'd consider changing sooner rather than later, but if you're otherwise very happy with it, speak to them about it - they should be supportive not critical regarding potty training. Grrr.

BTW it's completely normal for them to come home and not know or have forgotten what they did at nursery/ school. Mine do that, as do all my friends' children. Very few of them come home and chatter incessantly about their day

You are not silly. It is quite understandable and I've done it myself. It is so frustrating and a horrible mess to deal with every time.

If you have doubts about the nursery, I would definitely ask for an appointment to discuss the situation. If they are basically unprepared to help and are making you feel guilty, then I would seriously consider moving him. But, as I said, you might find that the staff are generally supportive (it's not that unusual after all) and they may work out a plan with you and help you to overcome this.

Good luck

Thanks twolittlemonkeys. I don't have other reservations about the nursery (yet) - it's just that. I did speak to them yesterday about it, and reminded them he does need taking every half hour or so.

I just dread going back there today and finding out he's done it again - sigh - and being taken to one side again - sigh - I mean, really, what does it achieve?

rosemarycottage Please don't worry about this. I worked for many years as a TA in nursery/reception and there wasn't a week that went by in nursery where somebody didn't have an accident. Its sooo common for children to have acidents, especially in nursry when they are really distracted.

Nigglewiggle, I think I'll give it another week or so and see how it goes with them. I mean, we did already have a plan in place (take him every half hour) which they seemed to forget on the first day (hence the incident) and then on the second day I reminded them.

If this continues, I think I will move him; better sooner before he's had a chance to forge lots of friendships I guess.

Thanks memoo, this teacher made it sound like doing it this way around (potty trained for wee but not poo) was the Weirdest Thing Ever in All Her Twenty Years. I felt horribly and went home and took it out on ds. Still beating myself up about that a bit, wish I could shake it!

Once you can talk about it with them without getting upset (I can imagine getting quite teary myself), it would be worth telling them how the staff made you feel - they won't learn otherwise and you'll never feel the right relationship balance. Or if you leave, write them a note to let them know they haven't got a 100% customer service record and need to be a bit less patronising/more thoughtful to adults (ie customers).

DS was still soiling himself occasionally well into primary school (up until he was about 8. Seriously). His school treated him and us with dignity, understood there was an issue, and worked with us.

A nursery, with 3yos, should do the same.

This is terrible. My DS didn't have a poo issue (he just decided not to poo at nursery! ) but often had wee accidents at 4 and even 5 and I never got even the slightest bit of reproach from them - they just handed me the wet clothes, explained and I would chat to DS about it and that was that. And I know they do have to deal with poos as well. It is their job, just as it's your job when you're at home. They do need to let you know, but not make you feel like a failure.

I'd start looking at other nurseries now. If this is their attitude then he's not going to be helped to get past this while he's there.

Also, you lost it, that's understandable - just apologise to him for shouting and start being as positive as you can. Stickers, rewards, a sweet etc for a poo in the toilet and absolutely no fuss or big deal otherwise. Calmly get him to help clean up, put things in to soak and in the washing machine so he understands what's involved, but not in a cross way. Also my DS loved learning about the toilet and how it works and where the poo goes - you can get books about this - that might make him more keen!

how very strange, he doesn't seem that old to me tbh. dd was notionally trained from two and a half but that really meant that she was dry but still went to a corner to do a poo for, oh, aaaages. definitely would happen when she was three.
her nursery said to us to buy cheap pants so that they could just throw them away, and that most kids had accidents at nursey for muuuuch longer than at home because they would be sitting on a particular toy and reluctant to go to the loo, come back and for one of their classmates to be sitting on it.

i'd really consider changing nurseries, tbh, it sounds completely weird to me. and 3.7 just ISN'T that late anyway...

Firstly I would be very cross with nursery. Is it pre-school type nursery rather than childcare - they tend to be less good at dealing with poo but still no excuse for their behaviour. Secondly - to give you hope - my DD would only poo in a nappy until just before her 4th birthday. She did however have amazing bowel control and only ever needed a poo at home. If you could get him to poo at home he may be able to last until you pick him up. I was going to suggest pull ups if it would be less distressing for him but you still have the cleaning up issue. Very difficult, I lost my rag a few times, eventually convinced myself it was just a phase and would pass, which it did. I was also despairing that the same DD would ever be dry at night, but at 7 and a half, think we may be getting there - so just tell yourself it will happen in time.

GladioliBuckets, the only trouble is, the woman who did it was the main nursery teacher. So I don't feel completely comfortable tackling her. I realise this is a bit wimp-ish! I think though if it continues, I will have to ask for a meeting, maybe bring ex-MIL along, she's much "harder" than me! :)

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar your poor ds :( And yes, that's what I want from his nursery, a bit of understanding!

My ds is the same with his poo - he's just four and started in Reception and he's getting better but the school are being very good. His big thing is that poo makes him heave - doing a poo in the potty was worse because he was so much closer to it. We never hid poo and always let him see it so have no idea why he's so squeamish. I've got two older dds and they never had an issue so I think it's just that some dc are different.

Not sure about your nursery. Sounds very old school. I'd shop around.

I didn't start potty training with any of mine until 3, if they'd got it completely by 3.7 I'd have been delighted and mine were at nursery.
I would say the nursery are handling this very badly and making you anxious, which you'll pass on to your son.
Who was the person giving you a telling off ? If it was the nursery or room manager I'd be leaving without notice, how very dare they.

Thebutterflyeffect, lucysmum, glad to see ds isn't the only one. You'd think he was the first child ever to have this sort of a problem the way the nursery teacher acted. Yes, it's a pre-school type nursery (although they do call it a nursery) rather than daycare.

Aitch, that's a good idea, if it continues I'll suggest that to them, cheap undies so they don't have to soak them out and the like. And to be honest I'm not sure 3.7 is that late, either.

MarineIguana, I'm going to give it a week or two but if this is their attitude, and I'm not just being overly sensitive, then I'll have to move him, better sooner than later. I'm surprised as I've heard so many Mums say what a wonderful nursery it is ... but I suppose a lot of places are wonderful providing you're meeting their expectations.

I have told him what's involved in changing him - thing is, he does know it's a PITA, he even says it himself sometimes, especially if I've had to change him when out and about: "I hate this Mummy!" and I've tried to keep a cool head but I suppose I'm a bit "good cop / bad cop" even by myself; sometimes I manage to be sanguine and "oh well never mind we'll catch the toilet next time" and sometimes it's more like "well if you pooed on a toilet like other children this wouldn't happen would it?" oh dear. Maybe it is my fault. Lack of consistency (sp?) coupled with the fact he already has three different approaches to doing this (his Nan, who is like me, and his father, who is quite strict).

Mamatomany, it was the main nursery teacher. And spiritmum, yes, very old school.

Trouble is, most of the other nurseries in the area are faith ones (not got a problem with that in theory, just that it's doubtful I'd get ds in as a result) and then the others are the daycare type ones, that are massively over subscribed. I might have had a chance with the CofE one, but now all the kids have started, would I still be able to swap or is it just "that's it, we're full"?

cheapo pants and chocolate buttons... good luck, i hope this was just an odd moment with the nursery. he's only a wee kid, they shouldn't be acting like it's the first shite they've ever seen.

You need to harness all the anger you felt, and turn it on to the nursery and the teacher in a constructive manner. Set up a meeting with them and go armed with all the information you can re DDA, LEA guidelines etc, and also take in a plan of action you want them to agree to. Be prepared for some negotiation, but focus all that anger and resentment and humiliation and channel it for your son. If you don't get the responses you're looking for, complain to the LEA/Council and move settings immediately.