Anyone got a defibrillator?

[OhIlovetosew]

Had a bit of a scary moment during Christmas and although the nearest defibrillator is about three minutes from me I can’t help feeling that six minutes and then getting it up and running eight to ten minutes too long.

this is probably going to be an ongoing scary issue, defibrillators seem to start about £1000 but on eBay you can buy refurbished ones for around £250+

wondering if it would be a wise move to get a refurbished one for peace of mind but I don’t have any knowledge of them and the few I looked at said pads expire on certain dates and I’m wondering about the batteries and do they need to be plugged in.

any advice gratefully appreciated

Who are you expecting to have a cardiac arrest that requires CPR and why? If they are at risk of this then they either need medical treatment and that should be pursued or they are not considered fit for treatment in which case CPR would be futile.

How much do you know about CPR and defibrillators, do you know that someone could have a non shockable rhythm making a defibrillator useless?

I would start off by going on a course to learn how to do CPR, good quality chest compressions are going to provide someone with a better chance than an untrained person wasting time trying to put defibrillator pads on correctly.

Not to answer OPs question but I think that is very misinformed @panicbuyer89.
It is very easy to use a defib, instructions on the machine.
Plus they should really be used together for full effect (until medical support has arrived) CPR until defib then defib and carry on CPR if needed, hopefully the defib will restart the rhythm getting them out of sudden cardiac arrest.
OP I suggest you do a bit of research but survival rates are significantly higher with quick use of a defib vs CPR alone. Just don't neglect the CPR to spend 6 minutes getting it! Couple of link because I know how Mumsnet can be! 👇

www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/aed-cpr#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIt's%20theoretically%20better%20than%20CPR,you%20could%20lose%20lifesaving%20minutes.

aedusa.com/knowledge/what-is-the-defibrillator-survival-rate/#:~:text=38%25%20of%20victims%20shocked%20with,defibrillation%20affect%20the%20survival%20rate.

risk-assessment-products.co.uk/blog/what-is-the-success-rate-of-a-defibrillator/#:~:text=Deploying%20a%20defibrillator%20within%20three,survival%20rates%20are%20very%20slim.

Defibrillators save lives. You do not need to know how to use one. They do not work if they are not needed.
Please don't spread this incorrect information.

There are only two rhythms that are shockable. These are VF and VT. Most of them advise no shock because it's not a shockable rhythm, making a defib useless.

I certainly wouldn't be wasting 10 minutes going to get a defib. A person who doesn't have CPR for 10 minutes is going to be very hypoxic and if they did make a recovery of any kind they would be brain damaged. You're better off just doing good CPR until the ambulance arrives.

Exactly @YouPutTheScrewInTheTuna and
@baileybrosbuildingandloan you both have no idea what you're talking about. If there is a calibrated and maintained defibrillator on hand then great. But there is a reason they put them in places like supermarkets where they will have trained first aiders who know how to give CPR while the device is being collected. But advising people to buy their own device when they know nothing about how to perform CPR is dangerous, are you both medical professionals? as all registered medical bodies say that you must make your identity clear when giving medical advice if you are a medical
professional on social media.

If you git an auto defib then the maintenance costs ongoing can soon mount up. Batteries and pads have to be changed every X years when they go out of date.

Your best bet is to send someone for the defib while someone else performs CPR. Defibs are not needed in a normal household, leave them to a community defib.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a typical person with no medical knowledge to think "cardiac arrest=defib". It makes good TV to have a person return to life after a shock with the paddles and, thankfully, that's as close as most people get to a cardiac arrest situation.

@OhIlovetosew the statistics are here
https://www.resus.org.uk/library/2021-resuscitation-guidelines/epidemiology-cardiac-arrest-guidelines#:~:text=The%20initial%20rhythm%20is%20shockable,approximately%2030%25%20of%20attempted%20resuscitations.

Incidence of cardiac arrest is 55 per 100,000 (0.055%) people each year. Only half are witnessed by a bystander (0.0275%). The initial rhythm is shockable in ¼ of cases (0.007%) and survival to discharge is 29% if there was a cardiac origin, a defib available, and good CPR, which takes survival down to 0.002%.

You'd be buying a defib to give a 0.002% chance of successfully using one (where success means "saving a life to successful discharge").

You said that it would take 8-10 mins to get the defib to the patient. The average ambulance response time is 6.9 minutes.

The take away message is "Do CPR, call 999."

My partner and I both work for the emergency ambulance service. Other posters are correct, there are only two shockable rhythms. If the heart has stopped (asystole) a defibrillator won’t work.

chest compressions are vital ! Sometimes we attend cardiac arrests and don’t ever shock as the heart isn’t in the correct rhythm.

if you’re with someone send them to collect the nearest defib whilst you carry on with chest compressions

if you’re on your own and aren’t familiar with a defib, it’ll take too long off the chest putting it on.

personally I wouldn’t recommend general public getting one

Response times depend where you live. I work in Oxfordshire, some of our villages could take 20mins to get to ! But I’d still recommend chest compressions and then get someone else to get the defib or if alone continue until help arrives

You would need to replenish the battery and pads every few years c£400. It also only helps in certain circumstances. There is a local trial delivering them by drone within minutes in an emergency.

No, I wouldn't.

I have SVT and LQTS, currently waiting on ablation surgery / defib & pacemaker to be fitted.

The nearest defib is 2 mins away. A couple of times where we've had to call an ambulance due to life threatening arrhythmia, it's been a CAT1 call and they've got to me in minutes. The care plan in place is for DH to ring 999, CPR if needed and if someone's on hand to run and get the defib, do that. I'd hate for DH to leave me on the floor, run there, run back, administer the defib when I might not be in a shockable rhythm when CPR would be needed instead.

Plus you need to maintain them too and it's expensive.

Leave it to the professionals I'd say.

Hmmm did I or did I not say "don't neglect CPR to go and get a defib" in my post and also specifically did not mention buying one but only referencing using the one that OP said was 6 minutes away.
Gosh you've made yourself look a bit silly, haven't you? Maybe you should focus on comprehension rather than just spitting out your opinion.
Defibs are statistically more effective, when used with not instead of CPR, than no defib at all (not in every case of course) it's a fact. I don't need to be a doctor to say that.
Where's your medical credentials then btw... advising people not to use one could be significantly more dangerous that anything I've said!

Don't do it OP.

Defibs come in 3 types:

Implantable - these are literally implanted in a human.
Public Use - these are ones you get in supermarkets, on airplanes and in public places.
Ones designed for use by medical professionals, these can defib a 'shockable rhythm' they can also have pacing capabilities and be used for cardioversion. The operator can select various parameters, if you do not know what they are how can you use it?

All three need to be checked on a regular basis. The first two need pads that are 'in date'.

As others have said a defib is not like it is shown on TV shows. People do not magically recover after a shock with a defib.

A cardiac arrest in a hospital involves the use of a defib but all chest compressions, airway and lots of drugs.

The chest compressions are what keeps the blood circulating and keeps the brain alive.

If someone in your home has a sudden cardiac arrest you are better off calling 999, doing chest compressions and sending someone else for the defib.

The single best thing you can do now is go on a first aid course.

@YouPutTheScrewInTheTuna the only person looking silly here is you, as can be seen by the multiple people who have advised otherwise. Putting random links as if that's helpful rather than others who have advised about official resus uk information and statistics.

Show me where I said don't use a defibrillator when it is on hand and maintained and calibrated? Tell me everything you know about hypoxia from a lack of high quality chest compressions that occurs because you're telling people to hold off on CPR while they mess about with an at home uncalibrated and unmaintained defibrillator without undergoing any life support training.

If I were you I would admit defeat and let the people who are clearly more knowledgeable than you advise rather than posting silly internet links. As can be seen by many others on here, start chest compressions and call 999 for advice on what to do next. Silly people like you shouldn't be allowed to advise otherwise, you are dangerous and should admit you know nothing.

@panicbuyer89 yet again, you haven't read what I've said. I have said multiple times now not to use a defib instead of CPR, but in conjuction with.
At no point did I say to use/buy one at home.
Not quite sure why you can't comprehend that?
A defib used with CPR is more effective that no defib in most cases. Fact.
You don't need to be trained to use one. Fact.

www.england.nhs.uk/south/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2016/12/resuscitation-to-recovery.pdf

Here is a framework from the NHS to have a read through, maybe you'll agree with them 🤔

And you didn't answer the question about your medical credentials still, wonder why?

Thank you to all the common sense replies.

we are rural but extremely fortunate to have one close by (BUT my worry is what if it’s been stolen; which has happened, or it’s not charged, I know of a death because of this), ambulances don’t come very quickly here.

I am booked on a cpr refresher course in the new year, we live alone.

I will be discussing this with my relatives medical team as well. It’s more of a mulling over at the moment but I’d never forgive myself if 999 told me to go get it and it couldn’t be used.

@YouPutTheScrewInTheTuna you are citing sources that are discussing evidence about patients in the community or in hospital where there is a maintained and calibrated defibrillator at hand and people trained to use it. You are not citing evidence that is relevant to a rural location where the defibrillator is some way away or where the person has their own. What are your credentials exactly for being able to appraise peer reviewed evidence? You haven't sent any links apart from news articles rather than research papers. But I assume because you are trying to come across as informed that you think you know about evidence?

@OhIlovetosew 999 will never advise you to leave a victim in cardiac arrest if you are on your own. They will prioritize an ambulance getting to you in this situation and you should maintain the chest compressions as per the training you're about to have your refresher on.

My Dad had a cardiac arrest 2 weeks ago. Nobody expected him to have one as he was fit and had no pre-existing health conditions. He was incredibly lucky to go down at work, surrounded by people who knew how to administer excellent quality CPR and how to find and use the nearest defib. He is still alive (albeit incredibly poorly) because of that.

Nobody really needs to know how to use a defib in advance because they are truly idiot-proof, the instructions tell you exactly where to place the pads, and it will not deliver a shock unless the machine detects a shockable rhythm, but they do need to know how to perform CPR.

My advice, OP, would be to ensure you know how to give the best quality CPR. If you are alone, prioritise chest compressions whilst you call 999 on loudspeaker. If you are with someone, send them to get the nearest defib whilst you are doing compressions. Compressions ideally need to be started within the first minute of collapse for the best prognosis.

If you still feel you need access to a defib, can you train as a Community First Responder?

I‘m so glad people are talking about this, it’s in my plan for after this whole shitstorm has blown over to make sure that everyone I know can give CPR.

@NameChange1412 exactly, a very good example of the outcome with a maintained, calibrated defibrillator that is brought to the patient by someone other than the person performing CPR and trained first aiders that would by law have needed to have been present in the workplace and the impact of chest compressions given by those with first aid training without delay.

To all those saying call an ambulance for cardiac arrest, my husband had a heart attack in May. We waited 2 hours for an ambulance. The paramedics were in the house less than 10 minutes when he went into cardiac arrest. Luckily they did restart his heart with CPR and a defibrillator, but he came too close to dying for want of medical support getting there in time. You can no longer rely on an ambulance getting to you in a reasonable time.

https://www.resus.org.uk/library/2021-resuscitation-guidelines/epidemiology-cardiac-arrest-guidelines

"A defib used with CPR is more effective that no defib in most cases. Fact.
You don't need to be trained to use one. Fact."

Not fact. An initial shockable rhythm is only found in 17% of cardiac arrests in hospital. So 83% are non-shockable, and a defib is no more helpful than a cardiac monitor.

In hospital, good quality CPR, with regular changes of the person giving compressions so the quality is maintained, with an 'arrest co-ordinator' giving instructions to the team, ensuring that treatment is given logically and sequentially, is what improves outcomes. The hope is that CPR will continue to circulate oxygen to the organs while the cardiac cells have enough time to organise themselves and revert to either sinus rhythm or a shockable rhythm (VF or VT).

If a rhythm isn't shockable, there's absolutely no point in having a defib.

Our town has a lot of defibs and most of us have been to the various free training they run. A handful of town residents have had their lives potentially saved using them.

At the training we are taught to do CPR. One only gets the defib when another person turns up and is medically advised to get it by someone on 999. Then, when it arrives, it talks you through the process which is very easy to follow.

I know locally they have to be maintained and if you own your own that will be an added cost.

I have thought about funding one and allowing it to be installed on our house. We are at the top of a very steep hill that people walk up and down a lot.

A lot of misinformation on this thread.

Here are the facts:

You don't need any medical knowledge to use a defibrillator.

Anyone can use them. I'm a Beaver leader and we teach 6 and 7 year olds to use them.

You just need to be able to read some very easy and simple instructions or if you can't read - follow the pictograms.

You can't cause harm because it won't work if needed.

OP I hope you are ok. This does sound quite anxiety provoking for you. Maybe consider getting some help for that too. This is meant in the kindest way x

I’m fine, only mumsnet goes completely OTT on a straightforward question which on the whole wasn’t answered. (Although lots of useful advice and I’ve just done the British head Foundation online on how to do CPR which was a good refresher to my training of five years ago and I’m booked on a first aid course in January anyway).

I really wanted to know did anyone have one at home, what do you need to do to maintain them (and if you have one do you think it worth the expense for peace of mind of having it). Had anyone bought a refurbished one etc.