Unwanted pregnancy

[Radioegg]

Before I start - I am a chap, so posting on here might seem a bit bizarre. I have also heard about the fearsome reputation of Mumsnet, so please be gentle, but I wasn't quite sure where else I could ask this kind of question.

I've been put in a slightly awkward position by a friend, and I need some advice. He has specifically asked me not to speak to anyone (including my soon-to-be fiance), but I needed to get advice from somewhere and I can't ask any of our group of friends as he doesn't want anyone to know about this.

Before I start this isn't hypothetical, but genuinely isn't happening to me. Please direct any vitriol at my unnamed 3rd party - I want advice, not abuse.

My friend (in his late 20's) has been in an on off relationship with a girl for about a year. She wasn't particularly 'stable' in conventional terms, and the relationship was always quite rocky. They split up about five months ago as her behaviour became more and more erratic. He recently accepted a job in the very North of England, after living in London all his life, and is leaving after Christmas. In a drunken detour a month ago, they ended up sleeping together, and he didn't wear a condom as she confirmed she was still on the pill (as she had been during the course of their initial relationship).

She has just told him that she is four weeks pregnant. She has also confirmed that she hasn't slept with anyone else, so it has to be his. After the initial shock, he asked me for advice, which is where you come in.

His first thought was that they should consider an abortion (I am not going to debate this here - we are both pro choice, as is she, so it isn't an issue. Ditto RE any religious objections ? we are all atheists) for a myriad of reasons:

1. They aren't, and won't be, in a relationship ever again.

He doesn't want to bring a child into the world if it isn't in a loving, stable, long term relationship. He had already made the decision a long time ago that he doesn't want to be with her.

2. He is moving to the North

He has just finished a PHD for his chosen career, and the job he has been working towards can only be done 500 miles away from London. There is no chance this situation will change.

3. She has no-one to help her

Although she has a couple of close mates, her parents are dead, and her sister lives abroad. She lives with quite frankly, two complete deadbeats.

His parents are livid at him, but also can't stand her after some of the things she has done in the past, and want nothing to do with any child born by her. I am not even going to get into this, except to say I don't think this is a particulary useful attitude, and have said as much to him.

4. She is exceptionally naive and emotionally unstable

She hasn't thought through any of the consequences (emotional, practical or financial) of having this baby. He has had to spell everything out to her that she hasn't thought of, and she was completely unaware of all things having a child required. She also has had many issues in the past which I won?t go into here ? but fundamentally she can?t cope with her own life, let alone anyone elses.

5. Minor point - She is financially in a terrible place

He only recently found out she is £25k in debt (not including student loan), and is about to file for voluntary insolvency. She is also likely to be made redundant in the next three months, so will have no maternity pay, and immediately have to bring up any child on benefits.

Fundamentally then I agree with him that an abortion, whilst he obviously can't tell her what to do - is the best outcome for this child. Now we get to the crux of the matter - although she was open to discussion initally, she has now said no, without providing any reason other than 'I want the baby'.

I appreciate that a mother's love for a child is one of the most powerful things in the world, but I still think this is a ridiculous decision in light of her circumstances. Regardless, I doubt she will listen to any rational argument, so my friend is now assuming the child is coming.

As you can imagine, he is (perhaps understandably) quite bitter about the whole situation.

He is already reasonably annoyed at me, as I have bluntly told him that this was an accident waiting to happen as he had a reputation for not wearing condoms anyway, and I have minimal sympathy for the position he has got himself in. He genuinely believes that she came off the pill deliberately to trap him into staying with her. Based on past behaviour, in all honesty, I wouldn't put it past her. Regardless of this, I still reminded him that is was his responsibility to wear a condom, pill or not.

Where we really divulge, is that he literally wants nothing to do with the child if she has it. He has requested her to put him down as 'Father Unknown' on the birth certificate, so the child won't be able to identify him in the future. He is happy to pay maintenance towards the upbringing of the child remotely via bank transfer, but that's it.

Up to a point - I can appreciate his point of view. He has been trapped into having a child he doesn't want, with a person he doesn't want one with, and it will be brought into a less than ideal environment for it to have a chance of a happy, stable upbringing.

He doesn't understand why his entire life should be completely turned upside down because of this child. He doesn?t believe he should have to take any responsibility for something he has done everything in his power to stop occurring, and has occurred because someone has wilfully ignored his wishes and all logic. He completely rejects the idea that this child is more important than him, and doesn?t want to be emotionally blackmailed into supporting her choice.

But for me, I disagree.

I think that his made to the decision to have sex, and therefore, he has to live with the consequences of his actions ? this child. I reject the idea that abandoning this child is the right thing to do. I believe he has a moral and legal right to bring up this child to the best of his ability, regardless if he has to do it abet remotely from the North.

Quite simply I think that the only thing that is important now is what is best for this child? And I genuinely believe that it would be better to have a known father, abet one that is honest about the circumstances of the child?s birth, than none at all. The best outcome for this child is not to have no father at all.

I am really worried if he doesn?t just move off and have nothing to do with it, he is just storing up the problem for the future, and potentially creating a seriously messed up kid. He thinks his decision to have no part in this child?s life does not necessarily precipitate a miserable depressed childhood. I agree, but personally I think with the circumstances the child will be born into, it is certainly more likely and will be a direct result of his decision.

He is convinced that the child won?t be able to find him, so all of this isn?t an issue. I strenuously disagree, and think that regardless at some stage this child will find him, so he might as well face up to it now rather than this child appear at a random point in the future.

I don't know if my thinking is slightly out of sorts, as unknown to him, I have already had to deal with a similar issue as a naive teenager. Although in the end my girlfriend at the time did have an abortion, I was fully prepared to step up to plate and become a Dad. In addition, I am planning on getting married and having kids myself, so perhaps have a slightly different frame of reference than he does being an archetypical bachelor for the past five years.

I appreciate that posting this on Mumsnet, means that potentially opinions from a pack of Mums and Mums-to-be might be a bit biased towards him being a complete shit. I am not particulary happy with him either as you might have guessed, but I do understand his predicament (sort of).

So what do you think?

Should he pretend it has nothing to do with him?

Or accept his responsibilty for this baby, and start thinking about how his life will work when it arrives?

I am seeing him over Christmas, so any advice sooner rather than later would be appreciated. Anyone that responds thank you in advance.

I think you should stay out of it

He can try and pretend the child does not exist and who knows this may work, on the other hand once he settles down with a woman he does want to start a family with he will be faced with the choice of acknowledging that he has had a child {which as a woman would make me wonder how the man I loved could abandon a child no matter what the reason - and - would he do it to me and our child} or lying and building a family based on a lie...which lets face it will probably blow up in his face at some point. Well done to you for being a great friend to him.

You sound like a lovely friend but ultimately it is your friend's decision. Personally I think it would be a great shame for both him and the child if he walked away - but that is his decision. It does sound like a lot of the issues are with his ex and perhaps he does not relish having ongoing (albiet limited) contact with her for the next x years. Perhaps if she was taken out of the equation he might feel differently- ie could they agree to deal via a third party- her family sound very limited but is there no one- a friendly aunt or good friend who he could deal with - at least while emotions are so high? Sounds like she needs a good support network around her- can your friend not help here.

I agree with you re your views on unpretected sex and stepping up to the plate but I guess that is all by the way now and recriminations do not help.

It's just a very very sad situation and you are right it is the child who is the priority.

I think such a long and lucid post requires an answer that does it justice, which I dont have time for at the moment. I'm sorry. But one thing that does strike me is this; is he really the kind of person that could forget he has a child just by no-contact etc? Or is he just hoping so? There are lots of things in my life that I wish I could forget, but I know that if they werent dealt with/faced up to, there would be no peace from them in my mind.

Btw, you do sound so caring about your friend

sorry I said that in a very blunt way (crying baby on lap) but I do think you need to leave it to them. Just support them both whatever their decisions

Thanks for the initial messages.

If I could say out of it, trust me I would. I slightly annoyed I have been dragged in in the first place, but he's my best mate, so there isn't much I can do about it. Unfortunately, he also doesn't want to tell anyone else about it, so I am default only choice to talk to.

I completely agree it is his decision and has nothing to do with me. But he has asked my advice, which he wouldn't have done if he didn't want some kind of debate about what he should do, and at the moment, I don't quite know what to say to him.

Excellent point about settling down in the future - I hadn't thought of that.

The third party option is interesting though - as far as I am aware she doesn't have any other family (parents were only children). She might also have other mates that I not aware of, but as far as I know, I don't know how much good her current circle of friends would be as a support network. I could be wrong though (I hope so).

Maybe my girlfriend/me could fill in that third party role. Although she wasn't the best girlfriend in the world to my friend, we do get on with her and only live about half a mile from her.

I think he is hoping he can forget about the child, but I don't think he could in all honesty.

He is an idiot, but he is still by best friend, so what can you do?

well he should make more effort than this, but if he really does just want to leg it, it may be useful if he leaves a note of relevant family medical history, as this may be of use to the child in future.

Hi Radioegg,
I understand your predicament and that of your friend.
It is a terrible situation that he is in.
As you and others have said it is ultimately his decision - however I know someone who went through something similar -(almost identical) which may help with your advice.

Instead of just focusing on the child's feelings (which of course are the most important but your friend is not seeing that) tell him to think about this -

This person I know left the country in order to not have anything to do with his child. His mother also refused to have anything to do with the child. Only his grandmother refused to give up on her and had regular contact and still does.
Now fast forward 10/12 years or so. This person has no kids of his own and after years of not wanting to see his child is absolutely desperate for contact. He has been in contact with the child's mother and she has said it is up to her daughter. But understandably the daughter now wants nothing to do with the man who abandoned her.
My friend is distraught about this and his mother now also bitterly regrets abandoning what has turned out to be her only grandchild. They are both tormented with guilt.
Though your friend may want nothing to do with the child now, he may not feel the same in ten years - when it may be far too late to repair the damage.

Of course, your friend needs to insist on a DNA test and I guess at this point there is a chance she may not continue with the pregnancy.
But if the child is his and she has it - he may think being involved with this child could ruin his life given all the problems he is envisaging.
But actually not being involved with the child could ruin his life much more.

My friend sounds like a total shit - but he is a lovely person. He was just very misguided and selfish when he was younger and he thought he was doing the best thing (yes for himself) but really he did the worst possible thing he could have done for himself, never mind the child.

My mother is adopted and I have two close friends who also grew up without their fathers - one having no idea who his dad is to this day. All three have been very affected by feelings of abandonment which never goes not even into adulthood.

Whatever the difficulties this child presents - the joy of having a relationship will outweight any of that.
Sorry if I rambled a bit but having seen the exact thing at first hand I thought my input might help a little.

Good luck!

I might get shouted down here, but you said "unwanted pregnancy" - is that the father or the mother too that doesn't want it?

I say this as the mother may have to carry the baby and look after it, but at 4 weeks pregnant she has choices that he doesn't have if she doesn't want it. Its her unlateral decision whether to have a termination for example.

It does sound like your friend was either lulled into a trap, or maybe she's not actually pregnant, or as you say it was an accident waiting to happen.

My advice would be - he should tell her where he stands - he doesn't want her to have the baby, she told him that she was taking the pill otherwise he would have worn condom. Additionally he has a new job and is leaving London so will not be around to help on a regular basis.

That being said, if she does go through with it he will pay maintenance and be open to some contact with the child - either she moves to the north (so he can help her on regular basis) or he'll come and visit a couple of times a year. I think in the circumstances offering that would mean that he hasn't walked away from the responsibilities and also he should tell her very clearly that they will not be getting together again... ever.

there are some hospitals that have a policy of not saying, but i guess the lesson for anyone else is wait until AFTER the NHS scan before paying for a private gender one!

BTW still think you should make complaint about sonographer...

mum was your 2nd post meant for another thread?

Op, I have no idea who my father is, I have no idea whether he is alive or dead, there are relatives who say, "oh it could have been so and so but if it was you're well rid of him cos he was a drunken wife beater"

Not suggesting your friend is this of course but the fact is the same, it's horrible not even knowing a name.

Very important point of medical history, I have no medical history, my dd has a genetic condition that we have no idea where it comes from. There are lots and lots of reasons why this is a horrible thing to have to go through life with.

Friend needs to stand up and be a man, if she is on benefits then CSA will need his name and details anyway unless he has been abusive which he hasn't. He cannot simply pretend this is not happening.

As someone else said, when he insists on a DNA, (which he must) she might decide not to go ahead anyway, then he'll have his answer.

You do sound like a caring friend, but ultimately it's his problem and very unfair of him to saddle you with it then instruct you not to tell anyone else, very immature attitude.

Hope it works out ok, would adoption be an option? there are hundreds of loving families in this country willing to give children and babies a loving home?

I should point out to him that no method of contraception is 100% effective - therefore it is always a good idea to put something on the end of it.

I think that there is a gap in the market for printed T-shirts saying 'she said she was on da pill so I dint use nuffink and now she has trapped me wiv a baby.'

I think he is blaming her for the pregnancy - and if I thought someone was so unstable etc etc would I trust them when they say they are taking the pill? I think not.

yes whoops for a different thread

Regardless of whether your friend wants nothing to do with the baby, matter wil be taken out of his hands if the mother goes onto benefits, as the CSA will be involved and he will at least have to 'pay up'. This can be done through them, but he will not be able to arrange maintenance by himself.

I think you know it yourself, but your friend is a total bastard.

I was a surprised as everyone that this was his attitude, he is normally quite reasonable.

I agree with the general consensus, which seems to be that he doesn't necessarily have to be completely involved, but some involvement is considerably better than pretending this hasn't happened.

Excellent points again about medical history and how he might end up in future, I will definitely mention both of these.

I have encouraged him to ask her for a DNA test, which I think is happening next week.

I did mention to him the idea of adoption, and he said he had already brought it up, for the lady in question to say she would have an abortion, rather have the child and put it up for adoption, if she didn't want it. The problem is she seems to really want the baby.

Nemofish, I already pointed out her instability and he shouldn't have trusted her, which he didn't take to very well so I don't want to labour the point anymore!

Thanks everyone - having a beer with him on the 28th. Any more advice is welcome up until then...

firstly...any bloke that beleives the "Im on the pill" line from someone they are not in a regular relationship with is a bit of a muppet..sorry..also there are such things as STI's so it would have been prudent to put a condom on it.

I would say if she has emotional issues then there is a distinct possibility that she came off the pill, hoping to get pregnant..but who knows...

ultimately its up to her to decide if she wants to terminate and Im sorry but your friend doesnt really get a say in the matter..rightly or wrongly..

the adult way would be to get a DNA test, establish if hes the father..if he is..offer emotional support, offer finacial support and play a part in his childs life..he can still form a new relationship etc, his feelings for his child should be removed from his feelings for the childs mother...

or he can do a runner..but needs to understand she will still probably pursue him for maintenance and once he has removed himself from that childs life..he cannot walk back in when its convenient..

I find it interesting that her apparent "instability" did not particularly bother him when he fancied a bit of hows your father with her...

Reminds me of the episode of 'who do you think you are' about Kim Catrall. It shows the far reaching impact when a father has nothing to do with his children. baby on lap so can't type much.

Thank you for taking the time to post, hopefully you will come away with something constructive to advise him.

Regarding the not taking the pill debacle. How many more men are going to end up part time/absent fathers before the realization dawns that a small number of women lie. Particularly unstable ones. Too late now.

No point commenting on the rights and wrongs of having an abortion, as she has decided against that, perhaps unwisely, but still, nothing he can do about that.

His parents are behaving disgracefully. Really appallingly. He should tell them that in no uncertain terms. They are almost behaving as appallingly as he is.

It sounds very much like she will have this child, obviously a DNA test is in order, no matter what. Assuming that the child is his then he absolutely should play some part in his child's life.

His child will have a loopy mother, no other support, and will need some kind of grounding influence in his or her life. As a well educated, reasonable man, how can he even think for a second that it's ok to walk away.

Obviously, it will be difficult contact wise, but even contact every couple of months is far better than nothing, from a child's perspective (a perspective which he clearly isn't considering). It's ridiculous of him to suggest leaving his name off the birth certificate. What on earth makes him think that she won't divulge his name to the child anyway? Of course she will.

Why would having a child to consider impact on his job, future relationships etc? I don't understand that. If he kept this child's existence secret from a future partner, what would they think of him if his child turned up one day? I wouldn't consider staying with a man who so brutally cut his own child out of his life, I would be horrified.

The most important part for me is the stability of his ex, and her ability to raise a child (if the situation is as dire as you say). How would your friend feel if his child/adult turned up one day having led a completely shit life, maybe having had been taken into care, because of a decision that he had made, because he wouldn't offer his support to his own child. He really wants to think about that one.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. He needs to get over his bitterness and accept the outcome (if it's his). His life will not be ruined. But he may well ruin his child's.

There is a recent thread on MN that talks about lack of knowledge of father and 'father unknown' on the birth certificate. I think that is one of the most horrible things your friend could be contemplating doing to a child.

He wasn't trapped - contraception is available to all and he chose not to partake. There is always a risk.

It is for your friend and his ex to decide what to do. From my perspective my then dp turned flaky overnight when I fell pregnant (complete accident although again it was his choice not to use contraception and he knew I wasn't taking anything and thought that it was a 'safe' time - it should have been but wasn't).

He vascillated throughout the pregnancy between being keen and not wanting anything to do with it (but always said he would do 'the right thing').

Turns out the 'right thing' to him was to have his name on the birth certificate, pay £50 a month, deliberately lose his job and then hide his income. Ds was born early and poorly and I remember the one time exp came to visit him in hospital (ds was 10 days old and the visit was to register the birth) he said he thought it would be better if ds died. Ds is now a strapping and delightful 5 yr old and surrounded by love from family and friends (none of whose husbands can believe ds's father wants no contact).

I have never pressed exp for contact as his flakiness and general behaviour aren't good role models. I answer ds's questions (started when he was 2 and continue - he is now 5.5). My exp took no interest in whether I was capable of parenting or not (I am not in the least bit maternal, never wanted children - was told I couldn't have them, but couldn't have an abortion having witnessed first hand what happened to a close friend).

If the only thing your friend does in this situation is to have his name on the birth certificate I think that would be 'the right thing'. Doesn't stop him being a tosser but at least the child will know that for however brief the moment he/she did have a father.

DNA tests cannot be done until the baby is born, OP.

DNA tests can be done from 11 weeks as part of a CVS.

He sounds as though he's going to punish the baby because he's (unjustifiably) as mad as hell at the mother. Shame on him.

If she wants the baby there is nothing he can do about it.

at DNA test at 5 weeks PG. sounds like somebody's got their wires crossed.