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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Unwanted pregnancy

47 replies

Radioegg · 24/12/2009 10:55

Before I start - I am a chap, so posting on here might seem a bit bizarre. I have also heard about the fearsome reputation of Mumsnet, so please be gentle, but I wasn't quite sure where else I could ask this kind of question.

I've been put in a slightly awkward position by a friend, and I need some advice. He has specifically asked me not to speak to anyone (including my soon-to-be fiance), but I needed to get advice from somewhere and I can't ask any of our group of friends as he doesn't want anyone to know about this.

Before I start this isn't hypothetical, but genuinely isn't happening to me. Please direct any vitriol at my unnamed 3rd party - I want advice, not abuse.

My friend (in his late 20's) has been in an on off relationship with a girl for about a year. She wasn't particularly 'stable' in conventional terms, and the relationship was always quite rocky. They split up about five months ago as her behaviour became more and more erratic. He recently accepted a job in the very North of England, after living in London all his life, and is leaving after Christmas. In a drunken detour a month ago, they ended up sleeping together, and he didn't wear a condom as she confirmed she was still on the pill (as she had been during the course of their initial relationship).

She has just told him that she is four weeks pregnant. She has also confirmed that she hasn't slept with anyone else, so it has to be his. After the initial shock, he asked me for advice, which is where you come in.

His first thought was that they should consider an abortion (I am not going to debate this here - we are both pro choice, as is she, so it isn't an issue. Ditto RE any religious objections ? we are all atheists) for a myriad of reasons:

  1. They aren't, and won't be, in a relationship ever again.

He doesn't want to bring a child into the world if it isn't in a loving, stable, long term relationship. He had already made the decision a long time ago that he doesn't want to be with her.

  1. He is moving to the North

He has just finished a PHD for his chosen career, and the job he has been working towards can only be done 500 miles away from London. There is no chance this situation will change.

  1. She has no-one to help her

Although she has a couple of close mates, her parents are dead, and her sister lives abroad. She lives with quite frankly, two complete deadbeats.

His parents are livid at him, but also can't stand her after some of the things she has done in the past, and want nothing to do with any child born by her. I am not even going to get into this, except to say I don't think this is a particulary useful attitude, and have said as much to him.

  1. She is exceptionally naive and emotionally unstable

She hasn't thought through any of the consequences (emotional, practical or financial) of having this baby. He has had to spell everything out to her that she hasn't thought of, and she was completely unaware of all things having a child required. She also has had many issues in the past which I won?t go into here ? but fundamentally she can?t cope with her own life, let alone anyone elses.

  1. Minor point - She is financially in a terrible place

He only recently found out she is £25k in debt (not including student loan), and is about to file for voluntary insolvency. She is also likely to be made redundant in the next three months, so will have no maternity pay, and immediately have to bring up any child on benefits.

Fundamentally then I agree with him that an abortion, whilst he obviously can't tell her what to do - is the best outcome for this child. Now we get to the crux of the matter - although she was open to discussion initally, she has now said no, without providing any reason other than 'I want the baby'.

I appreciate that a mother's love for a child is one of the most powerful things in the world, but I still think this is a ridiculous decision in light of her circumstances. Regardless, I doubt she will listen to any rational argument, so my friend is now assuming the child is coming.

As you can imagine, he is (perhaps understandably) quite bitter about the whole situation.

He is already reasonably annoyed at me, as I have bluntly told him that this was an accident waiting to happen as he had a reputation for not wearing condoms anyway, and I have minimal sympathy for the position he has got himself in. He genuinely believes that she came off the pill deliberately to trap him into staying with her. Based on past behaviour, in all honesty, I wouldn't put it past her. Regardless of this, I still reminded him that is was his responsibility to wear a condom, pill or not.

Where we really divulge, is that he literally wants nothing to do with the child if she has it. He has requested her to put him down as 'Father Unknown' on the birth certificate, so the child won't be able to identify him in the future. He is happy to pay maintenance towards the upbringing of the child remotely via bank transfer, but that's it.

Up to a point - I can appreciate his point of view. He has been trapped into having a child he doesn't want, with a person he doesn't want one with, and it will be brought into a less than ideal environment for it to have a chance of a happy, stable upbringing.

He doesn't understand why his entire life should be completely turned upside down because of this child. He doesn?t believe he should have to take any responsibility for something he has done everything in his power to stop occurring, and has occurred because someone has wilfully ignored his wishes and all logic. He completely rejects the idea that this child is more important than him, and doesn?t want to be emotionally blackmailed into supporting her choice.

But for me, I disagree.

I think that his made to the decision to have sex, and therefore, he has to live with the consequences of his actions ? this child. I reject the idea that abandoning this child is the right thing to do. I believe he has a moral and legal right to bring up this child to the best of his ability, regardless if he has to do it abet remotely from the North.

Quite simply I think that the only thing that is important now is what is best for this child? And I genuinely believe that it would be better to have a known father, abet one that is honest about the circumstances of the child?s birth, than none at all. The best outcome for this child is not to have no father at all.

I am really worried if he doesn?t just move off and have nothing to do with it, he is just storing up the problem for the future, and potentially creating a seriously messed up kid. He thinks his decision to have no part in this child?s life does not necessarily precipitate a miserable depressed childhood. I agree, but personally I think with the circumstances the child will be born into, it is certainly more likely and will be a direct result of his decision.

He is convinced that the child won?t be able to find him, so all of this isn?t an issue. I strenuously disagree, and think that regardless at some stage this child will find him, so he might as well face up to it now rather than this child appear at a random point in the future.

I don't know if my thinking is slightly out of sorts, as unknown to him, I have already had to deal with a similar issue as a naive teenager. Although in the end my girlfriend at the time did have an abortion, I was fully prepared to step up to plate and become a Dad. In addition, I am planning on getting married and having kids myself, so perhaps have a slightly different frame of reference than he does being an archetypical bachelor for the past five years.

I appreciate that posting this on Mumsnet, means that potentially opinions from a pack of Mums and Mums-to-be might be a bit biased towards him being a complete shit. I am not particulary happy with him either as you might have guessed, but I do understand his predicament (sort of).

So what do you think?

Should he pretend it has nothing to do with him?

Or accept his responsibilty for this baby, and start thinking about how his life will work when it arrives?

I am seeing him over Christmas, so any advice sooner rather than later would be appreciated. Anyone that responds thank you in advance.

OP posts:
victoriascrumptious · 25/12/2009 21:40

"My friend (in his late 20's) has been in an on off relationship with a girl for about a year. She wasn't particularly 'stable' in conventional terms, and the relationship was always quite rocky"

Man gets involved with a woman he considers "emotionally unstable". Your various other comments on your post regarding his views on her point to him having zero respect or even liking for her....and yet he continues to have sex with her.

He's made his bed, if he was any sort of decent human being he'd lie on it....but he's not so he's going to do a runner and further contribute to our decaying society.

If you're a decent person find yourself some decent friends.

harimorrychristmas · 25/12/2009 21:46

Should he pretend it has nothing to do with him?

hahahahaha
I reckon that is possibly the funniest thing I've ever read on MN.

Well, he can pretend it has nothing to do with him right up until a DNA test proves otherwise.

Sounds like a nasty little man with friends who have far too much time on their hands (OP - Do you have a life of your own, or do you get off dealing with your friend's problems??)

And, OP, it's up to the MOTHER and FATHER to decide what to do about the baby.

No mention there of the FATHER'S MATE. Back out of it and stay there!!!

harimorrychristmas · 25/12/2009 21:48

Oh, just read the bit that the father is bitter about the situation.

LMAO.

this must be a wind up!

harimorrychristmas · 25/12/2009 21:54

OK, I need to sum this up:

Man has sex with ''emotionally unstable'' woman
Apparently Emotionally unstable woman says she is on the pill
Man believes ''emotionally unstable'' woman
Man says he feels trapped by woman, the one he refered to as emotionally unstable but refused to take responsibility for contraception.
Man wishes emotionally unstable woman to have an abortion
Man does not understand why woman does not wish to have an abortion.
Man says he will pay maintenence
Man thinks child will not be able to find him.
I think man is a fucking stupid arse who doesn't deserve to be a father.

Did I miss anything?????

CatchaStar · 25/12/2009 21:54

Advice for him?

  1. Next time wear a condom, you muppet.
  1. Insist on a DNA test - he will likely have to pay.
  1. If you're going to hop it, leave a medical history and make sure financially (csa or private payments) the child will be taken care of.
  1. I would strongly advise asking him to consider putting his name on the birth certificate. Even if he wants nothing to do with the baby, I would imagine it may be a little crushing for the child to read 'father unknown' on the certificate when it's older.
  1. Other than that, leave me the hell out of it.

He sounds like an absolute treat, I must say...

expatinscotland · 25/12/2009 21:57

I went out with a guy like your 'friend' when I was in my late 20s and, at the time, vulnerable and unstable due to a nasty separation and divorce.

I acted a fool, but he took advantage of me and my stupidity when I was at my lowest.

I curse the day I laid eyes on him.

I feel sorry for this women, tbh.

This guy's a prick.

victoriascrumptious · 25/12/2009 22:00

I hope he catches clap and his knob falls off and the seagulls eat it

expatinscotland · 25/12/2009 22:04

I do, too, victoria, but he'll probably end up like my ex - living the life of Riley with his lovely, much younger wife now.

Oh, I fell pregnant to him, too.

Had a miscarriage.

Got even more fucked up.

I wound up having to leave the country.

Like I said, I rue the day I clapped eyes on him.

I will forever see it as punishment for the things I'd done in the past and my relationship with him altered the course of my life forever.

Like he gives a shit.

confuddledDOTcom · 25/12/2009 22:28

Am I the only one who noticed the slight inconsistency in dates?

Radioegg, when a woman says she is 4 weeks pregnant, she got pregnant 2 weeks ago. The first two weeks of pregnancy you aren't pregnant it happens two weeks into pregnancy. Make sure he knows the dates properly.

A woman gets pregnant and can decide if she keeps it or not. A man gets a woman pregnant he has no say whether he keeps it or not. Not saying it's right or wrong, not saying my views about abortion, I can just see that it can seem unfair on a man (taking the real life child out of the equation because pregnancy can sometimes feel a little theoretical).

expatinscotland · 25/12/2009 22:35

pregnancy is dated from the date of the last menstrual period.

and if a man doesn't want to get someone pregnant, he can use a condom, get sterilised or just say no.

confuddledDOTcom · 25/12/2009 22:51

One line to say what I did in... a few more. lol

If the friend had sex a month ago and got the woman pregnant she would be around six weeks pregnant, not four weeks. She got pregnant two weeks ago. Sperm can live for 5 days, but not two weeks.

expat, I agree. Whenever you have sex, unless you are sterilised or sterile you risk pregnancy and even if you are you're still at risk of disease. If a man tried to tell me to have an abortion I would tell him where to go (personally pro-life, but still pro-choice - my choice is life IYSWIM) but I can see that it could feel unfair on the man that the woman has the choice to be pregnant or not once she is. It's something that men should be thinking about and taking extra care over because once they've had their fun they get no say in the pregnancy that might follow.

somethinganything · 26/12/2009 13:10

OP - some of the responses on here are a bit harsh. It genuinely sounds like you're trying to help your friend do whatever the right thing is in a bad situation.

But have to agree with the sentiment that he put himself in this situation and needs to face the consequences. Absolutely no point him being bitter and blaming said woman. And yes, I would react v badly to someone trying to convince me to have an abortion. So, here's what I think:

  • Definitely check out those dates!
  • If it is his child try to keep the relationship with the baby's mother as civil as possible
  • of course he should have his name on the child's birth certificate
  • wait til he's met the baby to decide about not having any contact, for all the reasons that people have mentioned above, he might one day feel very differently and these decisions aren't always reversible. Plus it really does sound like this kid is going to need all the help he/she can get
  • Don't assume that the mum-to-be is a complete no-hoper, it does sound as if she's in a bad way but she might surprise you all
somethinganything · 26/12/2009 13:13

One more thing - think it's completely unreasonable of your friend to ask you not even to talk to your soon-to-be fiancé. You're going to spend the rest of your life with her, of course you will want to talk to her about something as important as this.

tribpot · 26/12/2009 13:31

"He doesn't understand why his entire life should be completely turned upside down because of this child."

Because that is what happens when you have sex with someone and they get pregnant. Does your friend think he has a special exemption clause that only applies to him?

6 years ago (well I suppose 5 yrs and 9 months) I had two friends in the same situation. Unbeknownst to me they had been having an affair whilst we were on a project together (NB it wasn't just the three of us out on site, I might have been a bit put out about that ). She got pregnant. He then admitted he was living with someone else in the UK.

She decided to keep the baby, now a lovely 5 year old. He refused to have anything to do with them and she's had to pursue him at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds for child support. (He also 'said' he would do maintenance through the pregnancy). He also didn't see why she didn't 'just' have an abortion and in many other ways, like your friend, he's generally a good guy, just a complete prick about this.

With my guy, what I've put it down to, other than selfishness and the shame he feels about having cheated on his gf with my friend, is that to him the little boy is just an abstraction, not a real person. An inconvenient financial expense, not a boy whose mother has to cry in secret because he asks why his daddy doesn't love him enough to want to see him. He's done some drawings which he would like my friend to send to the father. The father has replied that he is so emotionally drained by the recent court case he cannot look at drawings by a five year old. And asks that she "respects his wishes" in this matter. And what about the wishes of the 5 year old? When will he respect those?

"He doesn't believe he should have to take any responsibility for something he has done everything in his power to stop occurring"

Except wear a condom. Except not sleep with this woman.

And you're quite right "The best outcome for this child is not to have no father at all". He made his choice. This is the cost.

The point about genetic history is very important too, my friend has been through the mill on this as well.

DaisymooSteiner · 26/12/2009 14:23

"If the friend had sex a month ago and got the woman pregnant she would be around six weeks pregnant, not four weeks. She got pregnant two weeks ago. Sperm can live for 5 days, but not two weeks."

Yes, but lots of people don't know that pregnancy is dated from first day of last period until they've seen a midwife and would assume (quite understandably!!) that if you got pregnant 4 weeks ago, you are 4 weeks pregnant.

expatinscotland · 26/12/2009 15:06

tribpot, a friend of my sister's had a baby 21 years ago by a man like your friend.

he just never wanted kids. ever.

but instead of having a vasectomy, he'd gotten 3 women pregnant over time; she was the only one who didn't have an abortion.

he never saw Christopher, his son, as a person, either.

he is very wealthy and paid maintenance, but at one point, he phoned Christopher's mother to ask if he could stop paying, because his girlfriend at the time didn't like it that he 'gave' the mother of his child money.

well, Christopher now definitely sees his biological as a real person all right.

as a Class A prick who doesn't deserve the time of day.

because that's what someone who does a thing like this is.

tribpot · 26/12/2009 17:15

expat, yes I agree And I'm quite sure that is where this guy and my friend's son are headed. Although I have some faint hopes for redemption in that he is expecting his first child by his gf-now-wife and I just sorta hope that in having his 'first' child he might understand finally what it is he is doing to his actual first child. (It is only a vague hope, some men being notoriously good at partitioning their feelings about their children - some women too but to a lesser extent I think).

The OP's friend is looking at it entirely from his own perspective: "how do I do damage limitation on my own life?" But this isn't about his life any more.

memorylapse · 26/12/2009 17:32

my sons father walked out on me when I was 7 weeks pregnant..he completely turned his back on me and didnt want to know...when I gave his name to the CSA..he threatened me with violence..denied paternity and subjected my then 3 year old to a blood test..which of course proved he was the father..he refused to turn up at the court ruling to determine he was the father and immediately went on benefits to avoid paying maintenance.
He has never laid eyes on my DS..and his own parents do not know they have a grandchild..interestingly..he shacked up with a woman who already had children.

When my DH adopted DS in 2000..ex-p was obviously asked to give permission..his answer..yes please because his GF did not know he had a child and he wanted to wash his hands of it
he then had the audacity to tell the social worked that if DS wanted to meet him when he was grown up..he wasnt adverse to it.

fast forward and DS is 16 in April..we have always been honest about who his real father his..but DS refers to him as the sperm donor.."he is not my dad" he says...I recently asked him if he ever wanted to meet his real dad and told him we would support him whatever he chose..his answer "yeah..Id like to meet him, so I can tell him what a t**r he is" nuff said..

confuddledDOTcom · 26/12/2009 22:16

"Yes, but lots of people don't know that pregnancy is dated from first day of last period until they've seen a midwife and would assume (quite understandably!!) that if you got pregnant 4 weeks ago, you are 4 weeks pregnant."

So she's 6-7 weeks pregnant, not been to see her GP (first call, not MW, and GPs know how to date a pregnancy) and making up dates based on when she thinks she got pregnant. I think I'm losing even more will to believe her. For all she knows she could be 3/4/5/whatever months pregnant and hadn't noticed before!

drosophila · 27/12/2009 15:08

A friend of mine was in a 8 year relationship with a man who was from abroad. When they decided to try and have a family he had a meltdown. Probably a nervous breakdown which went on for months. Turned out he had a child in his home country that he had disowned. It looked like he couldn't quite put a lid on it. Probably harder than you think to disown a child for some people anyway.

Radioegg · 29/12/2009 10:36

Thanks everyone for comments, been away for Christmas so just coming back to them now.

RE how long she has been pregnant, I have only heard second hand off him, so I can't say exactly how long it has been.

As for the people obviously critising my choice of friends, well, up to this point it hasn't been an issue! I was as genuinely shocked as you are when I found about the whole situation, let alone his attitude and what he wanted to do about it.

I agree, he's a complete and utter shit. Which I have told him quite bluntly over the last couple of days, so at the moment, he isn't speaking to me either. At that rate this is going, I don't think we will end up friends after this, as I don't want to be friends with someone that could do this to a child.

As I said, meeting up with him tomorrow evening now, where I can elaborate on my inital thoughts with developments of the more substanstial arguments everyone here has helped me with. I am really quite interested to see what he can come up with, because so far, it doesn't look to me that he has any kind of argument left and needs to start manning up pretty quickly.

Oh and I told my girlfriend anyway as I wanted her perspective, she agrees with everyone here and can't quite believe his behaviour.

OP posts:
Mama2b5 · 29/12/2009 12:13

Hi Radioegg -

Anyway i have been on the receiving end of that kind of selfish behaviour and fast forwards 15 years i have a wonderful husband who took on my daughter as his own and thinks her dad is a prat to miss out on life! she calls my husband dad and they are great together since then we have had other children together and i dont give that Boy another thought am glad in a way he has no contact sometimes things get nasty this way shes completely my responsibility and i love it that way!

I hope She makes the right choice for her!
Boys can always walk away and forget but most girls? women i know hold on with hurt and guilt if they have an abortion forever years after finding themselves thinking about this child they could of had! and if she keeps he baby im sure she will straighten up because she has someone else to think about!

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