anybody else in 2 minds about swine flu jab?

[jlo1234]

i asked my doctor if he recommends me getting the swine flu jab, and he wasnt very convincing. he said its reccomended by the government but he doesnt know much about it himself so he would leave it up to the patient.

a friend said that she had had hers, shes a nurse who works in intensive care unit and said she thinks i should definatly have it because there has been a few pregnant women in there with swine flu and they are really ill with it.

the only thing that is holding me back is the fact that the vaccine is so new and hasnt been round for long enough for us to know if and what the long term side affects might be.

i feel like a guinnee pig and its putting me off, but then again i dont know what is the lesser of 2 evils, risk getting swine flu and putting both me and baby in danger or have the jab and risk side affects that havent been found yet.

i feel like im far enough along in my pregnancy for it to not cause much harm to the baby, (im nearly 33 weeks) but im just not sure what to do! it also confuses me that pregnant women cant have the seasonal flu vaccine but we can have the swine flu one?

has anybody actually had it, if so what made u decide u wanted it and did u regret it?
or has anybody else heard something to make them definatly not want it?

Just to clarify the whole GBS thing that Cote and I have become a little frustrated over.

I don't think either of us (correct me if I'm wrong!) are in any way tring to suggest that GBS is a common adverse effect of this, or any other, vaccine.

All we have tried to say is that it is a possible side effect. Now the reason we got on the subject is because I posted a link to an article about a boy who developed GBS after H1N1 vaccination. The CDC has been quoted as saying the boy's condition is not related to the vaccine. That may well turn out to be the case but I just raised the subject that I hoped that the prevailing tendancy of authorities to discount events after vaccination as 'coincidences' would not happen with mass H1N1 vaccination (particularly as they have been told to be on the look out for cases of GBS).

For some reason we then seemed to get into a very repetitive exchange with some posters who seem to think that Cote, and especially myself, are nutters because we mentioned that GBS is a recognised adverse effect.

If you like I think the point we were trying to make is not that GBS is a major risk for many people but more that it is harder than it should be to have vaccine damage acknowledged. GBS just happened to be the side effect that came up in discussion. Actually I think this thread illustrates that point pretty well when you see how opposed people can be to the idea of a serious, if rare, side effect even when it is officially recognised as such.

teletubby - This is not something you can choose to agree with or not. It is concrete fact. GBS is a recognized albeit very rare side effect of flu vaccines, including swine flu vaccine. GlaxoSmithKline says so on its Pandemrix information sheet, an no amount of denial on your part will change it.

Just accept you were wrong, and move on.

As Beachcomber said, I am not suggesting that GBS is a common side effect of SF vaccine, nor am I saying we shouldn't have it because we should fear GBS.

I have posted GlaxoSmithKline's Pandemrix information sheet which lists GBS as a very rare side effect because some people on this thread were calling Beachcomber a "conspiracy theorist" for making this causal link.

Having said all this, I have decided to have this vaccine as soon as my cough clears, hoping to pass my eventual antibodies to DS (6 months) through my breastmilk. It looks increasingly likely that DD (4) will soon bring SF from her school to our home and this seems to be the only way I can help the baby fight this infection.

I feel rather frozen in my indecision on this one.

Since I only work at home and will have a baby at Christmas (and dh does not use public transport), it is likely that if I were to get sf it would be from ds age 4.5 at school.

It is possible he had it already with a high temperature (but then didn't seem that bad, so maybe not).

What do people think about asking for the sf vaccine for ds instead?

They may say no of course, but it's the same one isn't it for young children?

Anyone thought of doing this, or is it not a good idea.

Cote -- why can you not see that the jury is still out? According to the CDC:

"GBS may have several causes. While it is not fully known what causes GBS, it is known that about two-thirds of people who get GBS do so several days or weeks after they have been sick with diarrhea or a lung or sinus illness. An infection with the bacteria Campylobacter jejuni, which can cause diarrhea, is one of the most common illnesses linked to GBS. Although rare, people can also get GBS after having the flu or other infections such as Epstein Barr virus. Except for the swine flu vaccine used in 1976, no other flu vaccines have been clearly linked to GBS."

AND

"Many studies have looked at seasonal flu vaccines and GBS. Since 1976, many studies have been done to see if other flu vaccines may cause GBS. In most studies no link was found between the flu vaccine and GBS. However, two studies did suggest that about 1 more person out of 1 million people vaccinated with seasonal flu vaccine may develop GBS. This continues to be studied. For the most part, the chance of getting very ill from flu is far higher than the chance of getting GBS after getting the flu vaccine."

And drug Information pamphlets have to state every "possible" side effect. It would be iresponsible for them not to in the event that there did end up being a direct link.

Btw, this isn't a cheap competition about who is right and who is wrong. Grow up and realise that in life there are grey areas and there is nothing you can do about them but wait until more information comes along.

Sorry Cote for getting you embroiled in this utterly ridiculous tangent.

Teletubby, the jury is not out. GBS has been firmly established as a rare adverse event with some, but not all, vaccines. The IoM says so and the manufacturers say so.

There are other causes of GBS of course.

It is entirely possible that the chances of developing GBS are higher with the virus than with the current vaccine. Only time and a lot of epidemiology will tell.

The point we are trying to make is that GBS has been linked to swine flu vaccination and that close, careful inspection of GBS cases which follow H1N1 vaccination seem merited.

Why are you so hostile to this idea?

Oh and when you quote would you be so good as to link to your source please.

Just in case you missed it, here is the link to the IoM's statement about the causal relationship between the previous swine flu vaccine and GBS.

www.iom.edu/en/Reports/2003/Immunization-Safety-Review-Influenza-Vaccines-and-Neurological-Complicat ions.aspx

We are not suggesting that all vaccines are linked to GBS, we are not suggesting that GBS is a common adverse event.

Beachcomber

We established ages ago (and you corrected me quite rightly) about a possible causal relationship between the 1976 swine flu vaccine and GBS.

Then we established that measures have curently been put in place to monitor any cases of GBS complications due to the H1N1 vaccine.

This is NOT what Cote is arguing. Cote is positing that the current vaccine (and previous unflunza vaccines) are more than just "associated" with GBS which is simply not the case. We do not have concrete evidence of this and the jury is still out.

There is the theory that GBS may affect 1 in 1,000,000 people who are vaccinated. A number which is significantly lower than those affected by influena and other infections.

I think Musekebbe quite succinctly explained all this in her last post.

And you didn't drag Cote into the argument, she very happily jumped in herself!

I think this discussion has completely lost steam so I am out of this thread.

I wish everyone a healthy pregnancy.

Fair enough teletubby.

I think the reason that Cots says what she does is because the Pandramix package insert lists GBS as a side effect of flu vaccines. It dies not say possible side effect or associated possibly maybe perhaps but not established side effect. It clearly lists GBS as a rare side effect of the flu vaccines upon which Pandramix is based.

I agree with you that this point is now becoming a little laboured .

Good luck with any decisions you make and your pregnancy (if you are pregnant, sorry I can't remember).

Darn you all - I'm meant to be working and have spent too long reading this interesting thread.

Went to the doc this morning to chat about the vaccine (I'm 27 weeks); he used the same wording - he's in "two minds" about the jab for pregnant women as he hates prescribing any drugs for us.

But he said that otherwise healthy pregnant women are being disproportionately affected by swine flu - he suggested not concentrating on the higher-than-would-be-expected death rate, but considering the increased likelihood of hospitalisation / intensive care etc.

I'm asthmatic, commute to London and have a three-year-old. So weighing up the (albeit unknown) risks of the vaccine against the risk of complications from this flu, then I think I'll have the vaccine. My choice and one made as an ignoramus when it comes to medical stuff, although I've done lots of reading.

Am chuckling at people quoting the Mail though - I don't think its stance on vaccines is particularly admirable. As always, it's just tickling its readership's nipples, to use DH's lovely phrase.

Mommymeggie I thought you might be interested in this article. (There are 3 pages).

I haven't had time to check out the background facts yet but it certainly is interesting. I have read studies about the lack of robust immune response from elderly people before however.

Many thanks beachcomber -- same to you.

Thank you Teletubby, ooh we better watch out ladies we might end up hugging each other on a vaccination thread. That would never do....

Sorry to break the group hug, but...

I am not "positing" anything, you dingbat (said in a most loving tone ). It is GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturer of Pandemix, that says in its official vaccine information leaflet that Guillain-Barre Syndrome is a very rare side effect of flu vaccines in general and this particular SF vaccine in particular.

Do you think they would admit to that if they didn't have to? They actually sell this stuff, you know.

We can go on like this for as long as you like. You will find that I don't mind repetition at all when I have truth on my side. Or, alternatively, you can swallow your pride or whatever it is making you insist pointlessly that GBS is not a recognized symptom of flu vaccines, and gracefully end this.

Beachcomber-

That was very interesting! I'm going to forward that article to my parents who seem to get the flu shot every year. My DH never gets any flu shots and seems to NEVER get ill. I came down with the flu 2 yrs ago and he never once caught it. And I was ill with the norovirus and again, he never caught it. Just goes to show how accurate some of that article may be. I wonder where you come up with all this information?? LOL. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the thread. I have enjoyed it. I do think that this is the kind of real life science they should teach in schools. Not the detail, but the analysis and the statistics.

Personally I have "surrendered" myself to the opinions of experts and feel much happier as a result, absolved of all responsibility.

One undocumented side effect of the jab was that I did write an uncharacteristically snippy post on Mumsnet on Saturday night after the jab. Sorry. My arm really hurt and I felt very tired...

Stick with it Cote, I totally agree with you, it is written down in black and white for all to see.

Considering how blimmin' hard it is to get vaccine reactions officialised (word?) I think that speaks volumes.

You're welcome mommymeggie. I have a vaccine damaged child so have developed a personal interest in vaccine safety in general. I have been reading about vaccine safety for around 6 years now. I started reading because I wanted to find out what had happened to my daughter in order to try and treat her. Doctors basically washed their hands of us and either didn't even want to discuss vaccine damage or didn't know anything about it.

So we were on our own with a very very sick 4 month old baby. She's doing a lot better now but no thanks to medical professionals. There is quite a community of people on the web who share info and so on to try to help each other. It is thanks to many of these people that we have been able to restore reasonable health and quality of life to my DD.

Beachcomber-

I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter and I hope that she is doing better from such a tragic experience! Did you ever find out what it was that made the vaccine damaging to your DD? And was it the polio vaccine they gave her? ( thought i remembered you mentioning it sometime back in the thread but I could be wrong).

Thank you for your kind words.

DD1 is 6 now and she is doing pretty well. She lives a pretty normal life most of the time which we never thought would happen. When she was at her sickest we were told that she maybe wouldn't pull through by various doctors.

She has immune system problems, multiple allergies and gut issues but as far as we can tell no significant brain damage.

We don't know exactly which vaccine did the damage because she had DTP and IPV and Hep B at the same time, although her gut problems and multiple allergy syndrome point to the pertussis element.

Interestingly she had a bad bout of chicken pox last year which seems to have done her a lot of good with regards to her allergies. Her allergist says she has come across this phenomenon many times before before (with CP and other diseases).

I'm so glad to hear she is doing well. I can't imagine what thats been like for you and your family! I guess you don't consider random vaccines as becoming dangerous to your children. That sounds completely naive but you think its just another thing to do to protect your children when 99% of parents give their children the annual vaccines as adviced by your doctors. Thank you for making me aware of such issues and not only has this swine flu vaccine awaken me to government and health errors but also opened a window for me to look into things b/f I put my children at risk in the future. I was always so pro vaccine b/c I thought people knew what they were doing but I have come to realize that we're all humans and there will be mistakes and unfortunately innocent people will pay the price.

I'm glad your DD is better, Beachcomber.

Thanks guys. We are very lucky, it doesn't always work out so well.