Quick poll - Pg ladies, how pg are you and will you be having the swine flu jab?

[laurawantsababy]

I am 25 weeks pg with dc2 and very confused.

After another death but with conflicting advice about the jab chosen for the UK what are we to do??

I would love you here everyones choice and thoughts on it to help me out.

Thanks

Jaype

are you sure Celvapan would be suitable for a vegetarian considering its been cultured on monkey cells?

.... meant to say... 'more suitable than Panderix'

I've just been reading the NHS website about swine flu and it says the following;

'Vaccine
The swine flu vaccination programme began on 21 October 2009.

Pregnant women are one of the priority groups for the vaccine (see Who will be priority for vaccination with the H1N1 swine flu vaccine?) and should take this as soon as it is offered.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has recommended that pregnant women be given one dose of the vaccine Pandemrix. The Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use (CHMP) has given a clear recommendation that Pandemrix can be given safely to pregnant women.'

I haven't read this full thread so not sure if this has been answered or not but I noticed some woman are saying they will not get the Pandemrix jab. What are the reasons for this as I thought if the NHS said it was safe then it would be alright?

thanks

Mini-Marmite thanks for the response. Erm, I think it was a possible discrepancy over how the original packaging for Pandemrix compared to the newly issued guidelines, over whether it was licensed/recommended for children under 10. We presumed that the initial regulations are strict and then they are updated as the recommendations widen to include more and more patient groups according to clinical testing data and use in the field. Lots of info has come out since then indicating that the WHO strongly recommends that children under 10 are among the highest priority group as they have a high risk of hospitalisation.

This advisory on the WHO website, I notice that David Salisbury who did a webchat today is on the SAGE advice group to the WHO. That's a bit of gravitas I suppose.

I thought the webchat with David Salisbury was good, although for those of us who have been researching thoroughly, there was not loads of new information.

My favourite aspect of it, for my own reassurance purposes, is that he basically said he disagrees with any midwife or consultant advising pregnant women against getting vaccinated, that they are wrong/ill-informed and need to check the facts. No beating around the bush, word-mincing, bet-hedging or grey areas there, he is clearly very certain.

Midnightsun - it is likely that the SmPC recommendation is based on the data available at the time of registration. This document can only contain recommendations based on what has been studied. It can take some time to update this documentation as a variation to the licence is required - there is an extensive review period involved to evaluate emerging data.

This is the relevent information from the assessment report:
"The data available with the H5N1 mock-up vaccine in children are currently limited to the age group 3-9 years. These data are insufficient to determine whether children should receive the adult dose or less then (e.g. half) the adult dose to achieve optimal immune responses. However, even the half adult dose of H5N1 vaccine appeared to elicit satisfactory immune responses (with the caveat that even less is known about the correlation between antibody levels and protection in children than in adults) although there were some advantages in terms of antibody to drifted variants with the adult dose. Therefore, and taking into account also the differences in reactogenicity between the adult and half adult dose in this age group, the SPC states that if vaccination is considered to be necessary then two vaccinations with the half adult dose may be sufficient.
In the absence of specific data and based mainly on experience with seasonal influenza vaccines the SPC suggests that the adult dose may be considered for children and adolescents aged 10-17 years for whom vaccination is thought to be necessary. In children aged 6 months up to 3 years it is suggested that the recommendations made for 3-9 year-olds may be appropriate. Due to the lack of experience in the use of influenza vaccines in children aged < 6 months there is no dose recommendation made at present. Specific data will be obtained in this age group at a later date."

I'm not trying to be controversial (or start a debate on MMR), but I would be interested to know how many times the government has strongly recommended a vaccine that has later been found to be seriously detrimental to the recipients? APart from the swine flu debacle of the 70's I can't think of time when this has happened, so if we are to trust our government, I really don't think they would be pushing this drug on pregnant women who are going to give birth to a whole YEAR of children, if they really thought there were serious consequences.....especially with all the challenges re. the safety of the vaccine. Perhaps I am being naiive here, but a lot of the people opposed to the vaccine keep going on about "all the other times vaccines haven't been safe" and I think I am just a bit ignorant to what they are referring to?

A couple of people asked him about the risk of the vaccine triggering a hyper immune system response (i think this is what its called!) which could cause your body to reject the baby, i can't see an answer to that does anyone know? It is really worrying me

maybebaby23 I'm not even sure what a hyper immune system response actually is, and I'm not sure everybody who is afraid of it knows what it is either, it sounds scary enough though. It is most likely only any kind of issue for people who already have an existing diagnosed condition of the immune system.

An immune response is in principle a very good thing: any virus or infection triggers an immune response in the body and it's the immune response that creates antibodies and fights the infection away.

Thanks midnightsun. I just don't know what to do at all.

Oh no....just as I had convinced myself to have the jab, I talked to my consultant who had allegedly changed her mind on it and said I should have it. Turns out this change of heart was because her "professional body" had agreed to support it so she needed to toe the line. She went on to say that she would have the jab if she was later on in the third trimester as the baby is fully formed and not much damage can be done then, plus giving the baby immunity is vey important - she said that she would not have it in the first trimester. She said the second trimester was trickier, and she would try and hold off as long as possible (but not too long as the vaccine might run out). She implied that the baby could be damaged by the jab - i.e. hearing and vision if I were to have it now, at 16 weeks. She told me to hold off for a couple of weeks and that we could revisit it then.....she then went on to tell me that yes, more pregnant woman have died of SF than of seasonal flu and that the death toll in brazil for pregnant women is at 1000!!!! I am completely in a panic now as I feel I have now been told the vaccine is unsafe at my stage of pregnancy, but that if i don't have it I am very likely to get swine flu and who knows the consequences......I now feel like pulling my kids out of school and going into hibernation for the next 4 months until I am well into the third trimester and can safely have the vaccine!!!!!

AGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Oh gosh lumpasmelly. Thats all i can say. No idea what to think as im in total panic mode too. Im 32 weeks, is that considered well into third trimester? I would like to hang on but am worried that the vaccines will run out too! Agghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

She said that third trimester is ok, as babies that are born premature in the third trimester (i.e. 28 weeks onwards) usually have a very good prognosis....so by that rational, 32 weeks would be perfectly fine as everything is formed and baby is just growing...plus most of the deaths of pregnant women have been in the 3rd trimester so you are most at risk then so should have the vaccine.....I think that it is only in the 2nd trimester that the impact is more uncertain and it's a case of how long do you wait (bearing in mind the vaccine might run out and we are about to hit the "peak")......I am so traumatised!!! I am now desperately looking through stages of development books to try and determine which bits are developed by when and therefore which is the earliest week I can have the jab!!!!...I am sure this stress isn't doing the baby any good and in a way I wish she hadn't told me this as otherwise I would have had the jab and been none the wiser, and the chances are everything would have been fine anyway. Sometimes knowledge is not power! ...and there I was stressing about adjunts when she is now saying it's the actual vaccine bit she is concerned about.

Hi there - this is my first post but this thread and all the info. posted has been so useful in making my decision about the vaccine.

I am 20 weeks and working in Dublin for the next 12 weeks. I have mild asthma (but which gets worse with flu and colds etc.) and have had pneumonia before. That was such a dreadful experience that I just couldn't go through it again... especially as I am feeling so rubbish all the time anyway right now (nausea and ms all the way through sadly) and am also breathless from the mild anaemia I have.

Anyway, after weighing it all up, I decided I would go ahead but only if it was Celvapan... partly as it is so similar to the normal flu vaccine (which I have had before) and which has been used on pregnant women in the US.

However, of course my UK GP won't tell me if I can have Celvapan (which was worrying me) and I would have to wait another two weeks to have even Pandremix... but then yesterday I found out that here in Dublin they have opened special swine flu vaccination clinics for those pregnant/at high risk... and with Celvapan not Pandremix. In the press here yesterday it seems the Irish are being cautious about giving Pandremix to pregnant women generally. GP's here will get Pandremix for everyone else in due course apparently

It is such a difficult and very personal decision to take for anyone. If I was feeling less dreadful generally, didn't have the asthma etc. I think I would probably have taken my chances with the flu...

The upshot is is that I had the jab at 11 this morning and so far no problems at all. Will post again if I do.

lumpasmelly i am sure that somewhere someone has done a cost / benefit analysis on what it would cost the government to treat PG with swine flu vs provide the vaccine. I am cynical enough to believe that it is more expensive to treat the swine flu, thus their bias towards recommending the vaccination. I take your point about previous vaccs, but i think they just haven't given anything to PG women since thalidomide, so that theory has never been tested.
As i siad before, i am not aware of any PG deaths in women who contracted SF but were then treated with relenza: or those who did not have other risk factors.

I also forgot to mention that they are only giving one dose of Celvapan here now... not two. Apparently the protection from one dose is probably sufficient (which I am also happy about as less chemicals).

lumpasmelly poor you that's hardly helpful for your peace of mind...! If it's any comfort it sounds to me like speculation on her part, erring on the side of extreme caution.

There is no evidence at all that a vaccine would damage the baby's development.

The reason they don't advise it in the first trimester is that is when all the organs and systems are forming and it's a fragile process and nobody knows comprehensively which delicate balances of the mother's body chemicals can affect it or make it go awry.

Also because in the first trimester the risk of a miscarriage is highest anyway, so the statistical probability is that some women vaccinated in the first trimester would go on to have miscarriages anyway and although it most likely would not be linked to the vaccine, nobody would ever really know and you would always wonder, as many people do, whether they did anything that caused it.

After 13 weeks almost everything physical is fully formed, amazingly, and just has to mature, grow and develop.

I can see why she advises waiting until later towards the third trimester. But we can't choose if or when we catch a virus (if we ever do, chance is also big that you escape it altogether!) and it seems the immunisation experts believe that the chance of swine flu harming the baby, if a mother caught it, is higher than chance of the vaccine harming the baby.

Sounds like you need a bit more time to think about it anyway.

Blimey in one way I'm glad I've already had the jab as there's nothing I can do to change it now.

suey2 but the legal compensation cost to the government if a vaccination programme for pregnant women proved to damage unborn babies would be colossal. They must be extremely sure that nothing bad is going to happen. The drugs companies may have been granted a waiver but the government cannot avoid that responsibility. We are protected under the usual patient rights and would be entitled to compensation if they acted irresponsibly or negligently. Maybe I'm naive, but I honestly don't think they'd take that chance. We're not just talking about the UK government either, government health departments in a list of countries has actively advised pregnant women to be vaccinated with Pandemrix.

Midnightsun - you speak a lot of sense and I think what I might do is just give it a couple of weeks and see how I feel then.....my consultant did say that at 18 weeks she would be more comfortable with me having it as the baby's hearing would be developed by this stage, so maybe she is just erring on the side of extreme caution (I am seeing her privately so I suppose more for her to lost in terms of her practice should things go wrong).....I have another appointment with her in person next week and I am going to take my husband with me as he is less empotional than I am and usually able to cut to the crux of an argument - hopefully by then we will come to a decision that we are both happy with. The irony of it all is that over the past couple of days from reading all the info I was really becoming very "pro" vaccine, and I guess part of me is annoyed that my decision making has been turned on it's head in the 11th hour (as I had booked the jab for this thursday!!!)

BTW - my consultant said that the take up for the jab by pregnant woman was high, and that those refusing it would be in the minority which was interesting to know.....seems like the general tide has turned.

lumpasmelly, thanks for taking the time to reassure me while you are in such a panic yourself! My surgery doesn't know when it will recieve the vaccines and we have been told to call back next week! So im praying that by the time they book me in im at least 34 weeks..

I just wish i could have it right now and stop this awful feeling. All i have swimming around my head is thoughts of death by swine flu or damaged DD2..the stress is not good for baby

Thanks for sharing the info guys. Oh and is anyone else having a section in december and worried to death about swine flu and major surgery? Im almost certainly finished if i catch it straight after (or before!) surgery arn't i??

[sick with worry emoticon]

Lumpasmelly - I am slightly at your consultant. And I really feel for you - to get such mixed messages is terrible.
I too am seeing my consultant privately(although he is NHS) and he was totally for me having it. Having said that, I am in my third trimester. But I honestly dont think his advice would have been any different. What I am at a loss about is where your consultant is getting this information. No where have I read that the development of the fetus could be impacted through this vaccine. She may be giving you this advice to cover herself, but has she equally covered off the flip side? And those are the risks of waiting? Each week you wait, the number of people catching s.f are increasing. I can tell from your posts that you are totally aware of this risk? But how did your consultant cover that off? I cannot help but feel that her advice is slightly dangerous - sorry, my honesty probably wont help you.

Suey - you cynic you.
But I have to say that the cost of a mass vaccination programme has to be substantial; and I cannot think they are pushing this vaccine simply for a cost perspective. The problem with saying that we havent heard any information about the PG women who have unfortunately died is that we may never hear the stories. The health services cannot release any information and families are not coming forward with details. So we dont know if they took relenza or not. That level of detail has not been made available.

They have said time and again that Relenza is not a miracle cure - but simply the best they have got. And because of the nature of what relenza is - it may not help PG women to beat the virus. The reason it is being given to PG women is because it doesnt enter the bloodstream in the same way Tamiflu does. Good when you are pregnant but not when you are ill.

You may all disagree with me, but is my tuppence worth!

Btw - 6 days after having the jab, arm is completely back to normal and I got zero side effects.

mistletoe thanks for that. Im glad to hear you have had no side effects! Fingers crossed for the rest of us now.

12 weeks and yes. Had it yesterday.