Quick poll - Pg ladies, how pg are you and will you be having the swine flu jab?

[laurawantsababy]

I am 25 weeks pg with dc2 and very confused.

After another death but with conflicting advice about the jab chosen for the UK what are we to do??

I would love you here everyones choice and thoughts on it to help me out.

Thanks

Doctor has just been on GMTV encouraging people to have it if they are called for it, but no mention of its prevoius testing or effects on pregnant women and their baby.

i watched it and then watched Hilary Jones, im 26+ 3 today and have no idea whats best! To have it or not and my midwife has mentioned nothing to me I dont know what to do!

ReneRusso - you're quite right. The death rate in the study group of pregnant women was, as you say, 1/34 not 6/34. Thanks for correcting.

I think the countries on the flu count are still experiences high weather temperatures?

I think Gordon Brown did see this thread. Its the way he says something about 'somewhere else on MN'??

I will do some more digging when dd sleeps today and see if I can find any stats on Australia. I am interested to see how many women were hospitalised and died from just swine flu.

It does also worry me that so many people who die have 'under lying health issues'. Did they not know they had something else wrong with them?

Meant to add - I think Gordon Brown should be emailed this thread to show how worried we all are and the extent of our research. Maybe then he might think about.

Still no word on my updated petition...

My son has just been prescribed tamiflu for swine flu - and I'm 13 weeks pregnant.

I have no idea what to do now - I guess either I get it from him, or have the vaccine and hope that with my weakened immunity and heightened exposure to the disease I don't get it anyway.

Anyone got any helpful advice?!

Chief Medical Officer Liam Donaldson was interviewed on BBC Radio 5 Live this morning.

He confirmed that this precise vaccine has not been tested on pregnant women. But they just don't go out and inject people with something dangerous. Same reassurance that all the clinical data and knowledge about the contents of the vaccine mean he believes it is absolutely safe and strongly encourages pregnant women to protect themselves. He said (I like this point as you can probably tell!) that in this day and age people should not be dying from a disease that is preventable by vaccination.

I don't have a link to the audio interview but here is a BBC News online news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8317212.stm

midnightsun - sorry I missed this last night. The links to which I was referring re the emea and not using adjuvanated meds in pg and u9s are here:

pandemrix scroll down to para 4.6

cevlapan

These are the product information guides as published on 2 and 9 October 09 respectively.

Hi everyone. Thank you for the intelligent and balanced debate. So, so much better than the hysteria elsewhere.

As a pregnant doctor, I will be having the vaccine. I'd usually go for it like a shot, but being pregnant did make me think a bit. There's so much more at stake. However, we know that swine flu poses a particular risk for pregnant women. The majority of us will be absolutely fine, but a small unlucky minority will end up very sick, or even dead. This is more likely if you have asthma or if you are overweight, but can happen even if you are otherwise healthy.

Some reports from doctors in Australia have been posted on the most popular doctors-only discussion website, and make scary reading. During their winter quite a number of pregnant women with swine flu ended up on intensive care needing ventilation (ie life support machine etc). This would obviously be not a good thing for the baby, as well as the woman and her family.

I've also just spoken to my own GP who says that at my practice they have decided that pregnant women are the most at-risk group and should be the main priority for vaccination. She strongly advised that I be vaccinated.

For those who would like to know more about squalene, which is in the adjuvant in the Glaxosmithkline pandemrix vaccine, I have found a scientific article on the use of this in vaccines. I found it reassuring.

ukpmc.ac.uk/articlerender.cgi?artid=871967

There is also a very good article in the Guardian newspaper

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/20/pregnancy-swine-flu-vaccination

B est wishes and good luck to everyone.

Ah, thanks!

It doesn't say Pandemrix is not recommended for under 9s, as I far as I can see. It mentions that little data is available in this age group. Also that kids aged 3-9 should have half the adult dose and they do need two doses 3 weeks apart whereas adults only need one dose. I've read that before, it's because children's immune systems are not as developed so they don't have adequate levels of antibodies to protect them fully from infection after one dose.

I assume little data is available for children and teenagers because traditionally work on flu vaccines have been focused on older patients.

Also it doesn't say it's not recommended for use in pregnant women, only that there is no data available, which means they haven't ever tested it on this patient group.

They can't though. No data will be available until they put it into widespread general use, which is about to happen now.

We're never going to find a rock solid "It's safe" anywhere. All we will ever get is "I believe it's safe" so it just boils down to whether and how much we trust those who say that.

thanks parsnipqueen good to have your contribution.

the fact remains though, that USA are not allowing squalene in the vaccines given to the American population. this worries me, and I wonder why Europe are happy and the States are not.

p.s. practically no medicine or vaccine is ever tested in pregnant women, because it would be so difficult to get ethical approval for doing so. So most, if not all, of the medicines which I prescribe to pregnant women every day could be called "untested". It all comes down to weighing up the risks and benefits. I'm thinking that there are people who are far better qualified to do that than me, and that I should probably listen to them. However I will now be far more sympathetic towards my patients who are facing similar dilemmas!

p.p.s. as far as I know the Americans are very anti-adjuvant in vaccines, this is a bit of a historical thing I think. There is also a lot of anxiety over there about thiomersal, a preservative which is in the vaccine, which I should hastily add has been used safely for decades. There are all sorts of national variations in our anxieties about vaccinations (the MMR worry has not caught on anywhere else, for example).

Thanks parsnipqueen. Very interesting.

I too was very worried when Australia had their outburst of serious cases of pg women a while ago. I kept an eye on their news sites online and almost everyday another pg woman was in intensive care.

parsnipqueen Do you know what the current state of available intensive care beds is? I have heard that in my small town there are about 3 people in intensive with swine flu which must be most of them. The story of the pg lady shipped to Sweden for treatment worries me.

Well, intensive care beds are usually under pressure, especially in the winter (as are all hospital beds... last winter my hospital was so full they were actually having to put adults on the children's ward). There is no spare capacity built into the system due to a strange obession with "efficiency". However every hospital will have detailed flu pandemic plans and all are supposed to be able to double their ITU capacity. I don't work in intensive care so I don't know exactly how that's going. I don't mean to be scaremongering and I don't think we're talking an armegeddon scenario at all, and to repeat myself the vast majority of us will be absolutely fine. But the risk of swine flu in pregnancy is a risk that we definitely know exists, and a risk that we can do something about. Which is amazing really. However, like the article in the Guardian says, if having the vaccine will make you more anxious than not having it, it's completely your choice to say no.

There's a discussion now on R4 about who should have the jab.

A new fear scenario has struck me today. What if half the hospital staff (the ones who are refusing the vaccine on personal principle) are struck simultaneously by swine flu, even though mild enough for them to just be off work for a week and self-treat at home, who's going to operate my ventilator if I'm one of the unlucky pregnant one with nasty complications...?

It's not just about me and whether I get sick any more. The mildly ill will be in no position to care for the seriously ill, whether from swine flu or otherwise.

Argh, hurry up with the vaccine.

Interesting stats for NZ

Am I being thick? Look at the 2nd paragraph. It says it should be given in 2 doses, 3 weeks apart?? I thought that was Celvapan??

Germany wont give it to their Army

I text a friend this morning to say that Im going to have the jab - Her response 'I wouldnt if I was you' Now Im back to questioning my decision.

They trailed this yesterday but doesn't seem to be men tioned in today's prog.

Too true midnightsun. Very good point.

Am I right in thinking that front line health care professionals all have the seasonal flu jab??

It was originally thought that Pandemrix would need 2 doses to give immunity, but the trials that have been done so far show that it provides good levels of immunity after one dose. Hence the confusion as the dosing schedule has only recently been changed.

Re: the german vaccine story link. There are an awful lot of people with an anti-vaccine agenda on the internet, and the more you look at these types of websites the more worried you get, but remember that these people have their own axe to grind. I would be sceptical if I were you.

Thanks parsnipqueen.

Some of websites I come across are very very anti vaccine to point of stupidity!

I am still in the mind set that I will have the jab. At 26 weeks pg I am fast approaching the 3rd trimester.

Dp has asthma so will have it also.

Have they tested what happens if you have the seasonal flu jab and the swine flu jab? Does having 2 make any difference to their effectiveness?

Hoorah! Just spoken with my fabulous HV who has said that the GP practice is being issued with pandremix and anyone with reasonable cause to want cevlapan e.g. if pregnant will be referred to the special Baxter clinic, no quibbles. However, she did say that they haven't even taken delivery of their stocks yet, and it will be some weeks before even priority patients (i.e. me) will be vaccinated. Fingers crossed to avoid SF between now and then.

laurawantsababy all front line health professionals will be offered the vaccine in the first priority group, but it's totally optional.

In Washington they tried to make it mandatory but that has been legally challenged. Which I agree with. I'd certainly like all medical staff to be vaccinated so they are in a position to care for the sick when most needed, and also not infect those who are vulnerable - but I don't think they should be forced!

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/16/AR2009101601833.html

"judges in New York granted temporary restraining orders blocking mandatory flu vaccinations for health care workers who argued they should have a choice. In addition to New York, many hospitals nationwide have mandated shots for their employees this year so they don't infect patients or have to miss work."