I know the official line is 'no alcohol' but is there a 'safe' limit?

[mosschops30]

I dont drink really when not pg, only when we go out which may be once or twice a month.

I have just been through the worst 4 weeks of my life and I am amazed that I have managed to not turn to fags, which would have been usual for me.
I gave up smoking the moment I found out I was pg, and havent drunk anything at all either.

But at funeral on friday I had one (small) glass of rose, and today I had 2 (small) glasses of wine at a friends house.
Is there a limit which is safe? We are on holiday next week and I would like the odd glass or a shandy or two.

Im not used to this, when pg with dd and ds there was no real limit set and I drunk guiness like it was going out of fashion!

Any advice would be great thanks

p.s., Light drinking is 1 - 2 units a week and moderate isn't much more, just in case anyone thought I was suggesting we pg ladies start hitting the bottle!

OK, well on the one hand I could say something about the number of scientists who give their time to trying to get to the bottom of it for reasons other than government control, but on the other I'm not going to bother getting into it when you feel the need to be so "blunt".

Makes me sound prissy, but having seen the pathology of children (post mortem) with FAS, and seen the FAE results in children first hand (obviously live, not post mortem) I don't feel the need to justify my perspective. I thhought the OP might be interested.

I am what I believe is still called a socialist and pro-choice and competely anti all those things that apparently initiated this research/theory, but bizarrely having been faced with the children themselves I'm inclined to believe my eyes.

Would be very interested in any research that suggests that just over 2 units- say 3 units, has been associated with FAE. As far as I am aware, there is none.

Not that I'm personally interested in the question- my childbearing days are over and I can't drink more than 1 unit anyway- I just get nervous about fluffy statistics.

''behavioural issues' is another bullshit terms that can be used for labelling children who resist unfair or bullying adults such as an incompetent or spiteful teacher.''

What a ridiculous over-generalisation.

Sorry Nekabu, didn't see your posts, was particularly replying to SG, but no, if I'd meant "loads more" I would've said so.

There is a big difference between neo-con blasting of female rights and acknowledging that there is cause and effect and anyone in their right mind will do what they can to minimise risks.

As I said, not saying don't drink, but to say needs to be 2 bottles of vodka a day is facile at the very least.

OK, now I'm going!

Can we have some scientific links then?

The trouble is there are no consistent studies for fetal alcohol syndrome as it is impossible to have a control test group. My Dr said 2 units a week is fine, and am sure a glass of wine a couple of times a week especially with food is not going to do you any harm.
I was recently in France for work and found drinking half a glass of Rose with a couple of ice cubes in it gave me a full glass of wine that wasn;t too alcoholic, but at least meant i could join in with the summer drinking.
It is all just about being sensible and drinking in moderation.

Mosschops please dont worry, the fags will have probably done you a lot more harm so well done for staying off them. I very much doubt that such a small amount will have done any harm at all. My obstetrician actually recommended a small glass of wine in the evening as it relaxes the womb. I could not partake often as when I finally fancied a glass at 20 weeks I got horrible heartburn! My mum and sister (both midwives) used to drink guiness and brandy and smoke and all 5 of us are ok. Not that im condoning it but I have a picture of my sis 22 years ago breastfeeding with a glass of red in one hand and a fag in the other, her DS is now a strapping rugby player. I think this nanny state we are in is very dangerous and even more frightening how sensible intelligent women are falling under its spell.

1here

2this one would be more useful if I could show you the whole paper, but even so

3this shows someone trying to help with the issues once they've arisen from the apparently non-existent FASD

4this is "just" a review

5would seem to indicate that every foetus can be affected differently by different amounts of alcohol

6whilst this talks about binging, it is interesting to note that this is classified as =5 or more units - a previous poster equated 2 pints with 2 units, where it is actually 4 units. So not that far off an amount that can cause fitting if done at a certain point in pregnancy - initial study only

This is getting too tough I've only just started with recent (2009) papers. I'm too pg., too unwell, and too tired to fight on this - esp. when every time I try and get to the article I can't get more than the abstract. So, I will add in a short statement from the AAP - after which, if you wish to call it a conspiracy and carrying on thinking that it's all a con and you can ignore the thousands of people trying to come up with definitive answer, well then who am I to try and make a difference. No doubt we could throw papers back and forth - feel free, I'd love to see them.

"As one of the most commonly identifiable causes of mental retardation, FAS is estimated to occur at the rate of 5.2/10 000 live births in the United States.{10-12} Higher rates are reported among selected subgroups (eg, 30/10 000 among Native Americans).{11-13} There seems to be a number of factors that determine the outcome of a pregnancy during which the mother consumes alcohol. Mills et al{14} prospectively studied approximately 31 000 pregnancies in an attempt to determine how much alcohol pregnant women can consume safely. The consumption of 1 or more drinks (a drink is defined as 1.5 oz distilled spirits, 5 oz of wine, or 12 oz of beer - Note - US oz, not UK) per day was associated with increased risk of giving birth to an infant with growth retardation. Although maternal age, parity, and health as well as specific fetal susceptibility may contribute to the infant's outcome, the potential for harm to the fetus is much stronger with large amounts of maternal alcohol consumption than with smaller amounts.{15} Nevertheless, current data do not support the concept of a "safe level" of alcohol consumption by pregnant women below which no damage to a fetus will occur.

I think these are the correct references {10-15}:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Surveillance for fetal alcohol syndrome using multiple sources, Atlanta, GA, 1981-1989. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 1997; 46:1118-1120 [Medline]
Abel EL Fetal alcohol syndrome: the American paradox. Alcohol Alcohol. 1998; 33:195-201 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
Egeland GM, Perham-Hester KA, Gessner BD, Ingle D, Berner JE, Middaugh JP Fetal alcohol syndrome in Alaska, 1977 through 1992: an administrative prevalence derived from multiple data sources. Am J Public Health. 1998; 88:781-786 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
Mills JL, Granbard BI, Harley EE, Rhoads GG, Berendes HW Maternal alcohol consumption and birth weight: how much drinking in pregnancy is safe? JAMA 1984; 252:1875-1879 [Abstract]
Kaminski M Maternal alcohol consumption and its relation to the outcome of pregnancy and child development at 18 months. Int J Epidemiol. 1992; 21:S79-S81 [Medline]
Hanwood HJ, Napolitano DM Economic implications of the fetal alcohol syndrome. Alcohol Health Res World. 1985; 10:38-43

I hate leaving it like that, and esp. with a US quote (given that it's their conspiracy) but I have to go and eat something and go to bed. Apologies for starting something I couldn't finish.

PS I'm including this, but will say that I do not take it as conclusive of anything because it's not properly referenced, and I'm deeply suspicious of their motives, but it's quite a body of institutions they've quoted in here I think

(Note to self, must do better).

Thats it now then, we are all brain damaged. While these studies are useful ulitmately they are self interesting and for the above there will be another that disagrees, this post is getting the same tone as the MMR debate.

Jackaroo, I can see that this is something you feel strongly about but Mosschops's original post did state clearly that she was only talking about the occaisional glass of wine. She's just been through what she described as the worst 4 weeks of her life.

My point about the French was not intended to be flip but merely to demonstrate that drinking the odd glass of wine while pg generally does not seem to have a massively adverse effect on the resulting babies. Also, most midwives and GP's do say "unofficially" that the odd glass here and there is fine. There is a world of difference between having the odd glass here and there and having 2 glasses of heavy red a night. Moderation in all things, and all that.

You say that "I'm too pg., too unwell, and too tired to fight on this".

It seemed quite clear to most of the people who responded on this that Mosschops was seeking re-assurance and sympathy so I think the kindest thing for everyone on this would have been for you to try and look after yourself rather than wear yourself out trying to write half an essay on the subject and in the process probably make Mosschops terrified (although I do see that your reason for doing so was probably to try and give an informed view backed up with sources).

Surely Mumsnet ought to be about mums giving other mums support? Your posts seemed intended to pile on the guilt on an already very stressed-out lady. I do think that a wholistic approach is needed - if the mother-to-be is very stressed out and has managed to stay off cigarettes as in this case (which in itself is a big achievement!) then we should be supporting her, and encouraging her to relax and if she would like a glass of wine to have just the odd one if it helps.

Oh FFS what a load of crap. THe studies done on pregnant mice can be pretty much disregarded from the off - tests done on animals 'proved' Thalidomide was safe for pregant women and look what happened there.

The bottom line is that there are no guarantees of anything - you can renounce all the wickedness of the world and obey every dipshit misogynistic maybe myth going and still have a child with some kind of SN, or you can (like me) drink and smoke in PG and be an older mum and still have a healthy gifted child. There is next to no benevolent motivation for all the FAS scaremongering - on the one hand it comes from the loons who simply want women's behaviour strictly controlled at all times (there have been calls to forbid alcohol to women of childbearing age in case they are pregnant and either too stupid to realise this or too evil and selfish to immediately lock themselves in the house under a vow of silence), another factor is that blaming women's behaviour for children's SN is a good way of, for instance, not looking at whether industrial pollution or phone masts or anything else profitable may be behind it.

My midwife's advice to me was 'Well, you want a glass of wine with your dinner sometimes, don't you?'

As SGB has pointed out in previous threads on this subject, the thing that would really improve the life chances of babies is to fix the woeful underfunding of maternity services. But that requires money and political will, whereas guilt-tripping individual women about their lifestyle choices based on flimsy scientific evidence costs nowt.

Please lay off jackaroo she has specialised knowledge she's just trying to add to the mix!

I said the research I'd read had said light (1-2 units per week) to moderate (below the recommended guidelines) is fine - certainly not anything under 2 bottles of vodka!

Personally I fully believe there is no harm at all in those quantities during pregnancy and that's what I've gone for, though I have preferred to stick to the light level. In fact the latest research would indicate that children born to mothers who did drink that amount actually fared better but the researchers did say that would have been due to other factors (probably went hand in hand with better diet, more relaxed, etc.) rather than the actual alcohol consumption.

Any baby born to a mother who's felt the urge to tuck away 2 bottles of vodka a go is going to have quite a lot to deal with anyway, poor little mite ...

Study no 1. A single exposure to alcohol during brain development induces microencephaly and neuronal losses in genetically susceptible mice, but not in wild type mice.

So how do we know if we are going to give birth to a wild mouse or a genetically susceptible mouse? or that the brains of a growing foetus whose mum drinks alcohol would be affected in the same way as a mouse into which you inject alcohol?

Study no 2. This is not a conclusive study but a hypothesis: that of abnormal brainstem mechanisms. It is further hypothesised that these can be caused by alcohol exposure. No evidence is provided in this link to show how sound the connection is, or how much alcohol would be required to make a difference. (it may of course be that such evidence is available, but we'd like to see it)

Study no 3 is about treatment methods for children with SN. It does not prove what caused the special needs or what quantity of alcohol would be required to do so: only that there are x no of children who do have special needs.

Study no 4. A composition of internet searches on articles on fetal alcohol syndrome (not what my department would accept as research even from a first-year student, but never mind). This again proves nothing about quantities.

Study no 5 does not show "that every foetus can be affected differently by different amounts of alcohol". The tests were carried out on a pair of human twins suspected of having been exposed to alcohol and a litter of guinea pigs which was exposed to alcohol.
What it does prove is that foetuses can react differently to the same amount of alcohol- obviously it would be impossible to deliberately distribute different amounts of alcohol to foetuses carried at the same time by the same mother. But it shows nothing about what the quantity of alcohol would be for the human foetuses- obviously noone knew how much the mother had been drinking.

in Study 6, I would want to know what the Danes understand by >5 drinks first (they say "drinks", not units). And would also note that they specifically state that this study would need to be replicated before any conclusions can be drawn.

1. I am not a wild mouse or indeed a mouse of any kind. I didn't realise mice liked a nice glass of wine, actually. I guess it's easy for them to misjudge their units because they are so tiny and a wine glass or beer bottle is so big, comparatively. Even these ones who are clearly pregnant seem to have overdone it. Feckless mice madams the lot of 'em. I hope they're wild mice so their kids don't suffer too many behavioural problems.
2. Seems to posit that SIDS may be caused by brainstem injury and asks whether brainstem injuries could be caused in utero and postulates that if so maternal fags and boozing could be a factor. Lots of positing and postulating and whethering in that one, frankly, but no answers.
3. Maths interventions for children are great but not very useful in telling you how much to drink in pregnancy as far as I can tell from occasionally helping out with my sons' maths homework. Though helping with homework does tend to make me want to reach for a bottle of absinthe and drain it to the dregs.
4. An internet search concludes that alcohol is dangerous in pregnancy without offering any evaluation of the quality of the results. Helpful.
5. I am not a guinea pig. I'm not being speciesist but everyone knows that guinea pigs are lushes. Look how this one dressed up after a night out on the lash.
6. Looks like it might be a semi-decent study and on humans as well- huzzah! I'm happy with the advice that it may not be ideal to binge drink at 11-16 weeks pregnant, especially combined with the caveat that the study is exploratory and needs to be replicated.

Moss, I am sure you are a sensible person, the occasional glass of shandy or wine prepared as Nekabu suggests, will do little harm especially with food.

I wouldn't and didn't, but plenty do, and I only saw 1 case of FAS in 6 months on SCBU. Having said that, you have to do what makes you comfortable. DD has SN, & I know that I would have worried if I had not followed any of the guidelines. But that is my personality.

Plenty of women drink while pregnant and their babies have no obvious adverse effects. Just as plenty of people smoke into their 80's and have no obvious health problems. Neither means there is necessarily a safe limit...in terms of alcohol in pregnancy, you'll only have limits that are likely safer than others....and that is fine with some people. They will stay within those limits and enjoy their drinks, but for others will choose not to take any chances, however small they may be.

The concern is that while the occasional drink probably won't be a problem, there have been no definitive studies to say how much is too much for each individual. Is the stage of fetal development at the time the mother drinks a factor? Does the mother's weight play a role? What about the percent of alcohol in the beverage?

It comes down to what you are comfortable with as an individual.

I just want to add to this debate that I've been a foster carer of several different babies who have suffered from different degree of FAE & ARND, as well as FAS. Obviously there is no way for social services to be able to confirm accurately how much their mothers drank. (I met one mother at a supervised visit, who said "I never got drunk, only ever a bit tipsy; I did that with my other kids and they're all right so its not really my fault ) It is very sad seeing the damaging results of excessive drinking in pregnancy, and clearly Jackaroo has seen some even more disturbing things.

Like Jackaroo, I drink a little when pregnant, and only after 13 weeks. An example is that today I drank a glass of Pimms, made to half the usual strength. I'd have that, or a half glass of wine, 2 or 3 times a week, thats what I feel comfortable with. I would rather err on the side of caution, and I don't view this as being controlled by the government.

To the OP - No-one can tell you how much is "safe" as it is virtually impossible to study accurately. When babies are seen to have problems caused by alcohol and their mothers are asked to estimate how much they drank, it would only be human nature for the woman to underestimate the amounts. It is fantastic that you gave up smoking. You need to read the balance of opinions and make up your own mind what you feel comfortable about.

BTW, just discovered Becks alcohol free beer, and to me it tastes pretty much like regular beer. Well worth a try. I also find that making sure there are plenty of interesting non-alcoholic drinks around helps me - the problem is parties or friends houses when there is wine, beer or tap water....

I'd wonder about the "only ever a bit tipsy" too as she didn't say how often that was and people get tipsy with very different levels of alcohol intake. I have one friend who's rolling drunk on half a cider and another who is (apparently) as sober as a judge on 2 bottles of red. By far the easiest and most accurate way to judge is to just count the units - and to count them accurately by measurement, not '1 glass of what I fancy drinking, no matter what the size = 1 unit'.

There are also lots of adult cordials out there now which are nice mixed with fizzy water for a bit of a 'special' drink.

My pet peeve though is the scarcity, inaccuracy and price of half bottles of wine. I'm only going to have a little bit and my partner's not going to want to finish the rest of a bottle, so we'd like a half bottle. Either there's hardly any choice and what there is is the same price as a full bottle or the bottles sitting under the 'half bottles' sign are either 1/3 or 2/3 bottles, not 1/2. With the government whittering on about trying to cut peoples' drinking you'd think half bottles would be a bit more available!

Asda do a good selection of mini-bottles - think they are less than half, but it gives my DP 2 glasses and a splash for me.

They're probably 1/3 bottles - that's the size we usually go for but it is annoying that (in some supermarkets) both 1/3 and 2/3 bottles are under the big header of 1/2 bottles, with no 1/2 bottles on display at all! I don't understand why there aren't more 1/2 bottles around - half a bottle between two adults (normally, not when one is pg) has got to be a better amount than a full bottle which often ends up being finished.

Hmm it might be to do with the corkage tax (don't know if that's what it's called), which is the same rate for every bottle, however expensive. It would make half bottles seem very pricey.

I can also second the alcohol free beer. I went out on Saturday and had Erdinger alcohol free and Bitburger Drive. They both actually taste nice and, being the social wallflower that I am, seemed to give me a bit more confidence to join in with everyone else who was merrily drinking their weight in real beer. I thought I'd have been heading home after two cokes. They did give me a bit of hangover though - particularly cruel, I thought.