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Original poster

'Reverse Flow in Ductus Venosus' - 12 week scan at FMC

168 replies

Toppy · 09/03/2009 21:24

I am posting this in the hope that someone may have been in a similar position and can help me understand the implications of my 12 week scan - apologies for the long post.

I have just been for a 12 week scan at the Foetal Medicine Centre where one of the markers they check is the Ductus Venosus flow. My baby's flow is reverse flow. This can be an indicator of Downs. We were told that 80% of Downs babies have this condition bu that 3% of 'chromosomally normal' babies also have reverse flow. Once combined with my age, blood results or other markers (nuchal fold, nasal bone) we were given a very low risk of Downs, Edwards and Patau.

DH is very happy with these results but I can't stop worrying about what this reverse flow means outside of the context of the Nuchal scan. The sonographer said we could do nothing more than wait for the 20 week scan and focused on my low chromosomal defect risk.

Now I am home I am worried about what might await us at the 20 week scan as reverse flow can be indicative of heart defects. This has just caused the most ENORMOUS row between me and DH. He can only see the facts: in the context of the 12 week scan this anomaly has been cancelled out to by other good indicators to give an overall low risk whereas I, worrier that I am, can only think about why the anomaly is there at all.

I know there is nothing I can do but wait for the 20 week scan and google (bad bad idea) but I was hoping someone else further on down the line might have had this experience that they could share.

OP posts:
Charlie11 · 30/06/2009 20:51

I was given odds of 1 in 17 for Downs on Friday at the FMC because they found no nasal bone and a reverse flow DV. I found this page really encouraging and informative, I am pleased to say I got the CVS results today and they were negative for Downs. Am going to try not to worry too much about the reverse flow, perhaps get a heart scan at 16/18 weeks to put my mind at rest, but am feeling much happier now I know it's not got Downs after a very scary few days!

bexincornwall · 09/08/2009 22:55

Hello, I just thought I'd check in and see if there was any update from previous posts but found this thread difficult to find, I don't know if posting again might help to bump it?

Hope all pregnancies are going well & would love to hear any updates (might also be useful to someone else finding this thread.

Original poster
Toppy · 10/08/2009 22:15

Hi Bex
I am in France at the moment 35 weeks pg on a final holiday and all those worries seem a long time ago but they do creep in every now and then (I caught a 'fairy' dandelion clock thingy today and out of habit made a wish - that the baby would be healthy !)
I will absolutely update this thread when she arrives. Due on 17th Sept but I will be very glad if she comes a couple of weeks early - the heat this size is unbearable.

OP posts:
Gill5555 · 17/09/2009 16:35

Hi, I've just been reading through this thread.

I had a ductus venosus reverse flow marker and had a CVS test, which showed no chromosomal abnormalities .

But I've been told I'll need to see a cardiologist when I have my 20 week scan (just over 2 weeks time). What I'm not sure about is does a reverse flow marker indicate a heart problem....?

I've no idea and seem to spend a lot of time worrying about this - has anyone else got any experiences of this reverse flow marker and what it means?

Thanks, Gill

Original poster
Toppy · 17/09/2009 16:59

Hi Gill - I started this thread a while back and by chance I saw that it was active again. I am due today but no sign of baby yet !
Reverse flow in the DV is a Downs soft marker as 80% of Downs babies have it. However 3% of chromosonally normal babies also have it - so that's you ! Brilliant news from the CVS by the way and super reassuring.

Reverse flow can also indicate a possibility of heart defects. I was worried about this too as my risk for Downs despite the reverse flow came out very low but then I still had this heart thing hanging over me. They cannot scan the heart in enough detail until at least 18 weeks so this is normally done at the 20 week scan and annoyingly you just have to sit it out but sounds like you won;t have to wait long.

My sonographer said at my 20 week scan that measuring flow in the DV is notoriously difficult and very very subject to human error. (I also saw a consultant at Chelsea and Westminster who specialises in foetal medicine and he said the same thing - it is such a tiny tiny vein they are trying to pinpoint).
At the 20 weeks scan (Foetal Medicine Centre) they did not check the flow again - they just did an extra detailed heart scan and were very happy that all was well ( I did have another soft marker if you read back through this thread which was upsetting but they really were not worried about)
I know I have not been able to enlighten you much but there is so little out there on reverse flow and believe me I have done all the reading I can on it. Even my consultant cardiologist friend says it is not much to worry about. They do not worry about it too much - studies have shown that there is a link so if it shows up they check the link yet more often than not it comes to nothing. The thing is when you've been told you have it it hangs over you terribly. I am hoping to update this thread in a matter of days so will keep you posted. Good luck at your scan and come back and let us know how it went

OP posts:
Gill5555 · 17/09/2009 17:26

Hi Toppy, thanks so much for your message. Until I got pregnant I had no idea I was such a worrier - it has come as a real shock! God know what I'll be like when baby comes along...

I must of being having a moment,as I didn't realise there were 3 pages to read of this thread. I've read through them all now and do feel much calmer. Being pregnant is such a waiting game.

I also tried to read around the subject but could not understand all the medical jargon - or the bits that I could understand, just freaked me out!

You've been really helpful. Good luck to you with the birth; hope it all goes well . I'll update this page after the scan.

Vallmo · 17/09/2009 23:11

Gill5555 - I was also diagnosed with a reverse flow in the DV at my 12 weeks scan and have 2 more weeks to go before the 20 week scan, where they will do a thorough examination of the baby's heart to ensure that everything is ok. I am feeling a bit nervous about it but after my scan I was reassured both by a doctor from the FMC and from King's Collage Hospital (where I had the scan), that it really wasn't anything to worry about. I did not have CV as the statistics for a chromosomal abnormality was very low in my case (1:2500 or something) so I didn't think it was worth the risk of a CV.

The consultant at King's said that they personally had not found a very strong correlation between reverse flow in DV and future heart problems. The DV closes once the baby is born and other blood supply takes over. In 95% of cases the reverse flow in the DV apparently "sort itself out". I am trying to stay as positive as I can but of course you worry when you are told that something "is not normal" and especially when there is so little information about the issue. I was so very grateful to Toppy for starting this thread and all the women who commented on it and provided so much understandable information and reassurance.

Best of luck to you both... very exciting times for you Toppy!

1mum1 · 18/09/2009 18:42

Can I ask if the dv reverse flow is an outflow tract? We went to the FMC for a 12 week scan and were told our baby has DV reverse flow. We didn't mention our FMC scan at the NHS 20 weeks (we also felt that we may come accross as worry warts) but this later 20 week scan notes say that heart outflow tracts were normal.

Does this mean it righted itself and the FMC sonographer said it could? Would really appreciate any advice as am suddenly a little worried!

Thanks.

1mum1 · 18/09/2009 18:54

I meant to write 'Does this mean it righted itself AS the FMC sonographer said it could?'

Original poster
Toppy · 18/09/2009 19:11

Hi 1mum1 - sounds technical. I would call FMC to check if it is remotely playing on your mind. They are really happy to explain stuff like that over the phone. Most NHS don't check the DV as it is so tricky and even the FMC don't check the flow in the DV again at 20 weeks as they have better markers to assess at that stage. I would assume that if your 20 weeks scan did not throw anything up then you are in the all clear which is great.

OP posts:
1mum1 · 18/09/2009 19:48

Thanks Toppy for this and thanks also for your wonderful contributions throughout the thread and for starting it! I guess I was trying to find out (and was secretly hoping!) that if the fact that the NHS 20 wk scan said 'outflow tracts' were normal, that they were talking about the DV reverse thing but if you say the NHS don't check the DV then that answers my question. 'Outflow tracts' must be nothing to do with the DV and are not the same thing.

I have made that much more complicated that I needed to!

I feel a bit bad in a way that I have maybe not worried enough about this (new realms of mum to be anxiety!) as we have just been taking what the FMC sonographer said for red and not worried about the reverse flow DV and hence didn't double check at our 20 wk scan (I'm 29+2 now). But like you brilliantly put somewhere on page 2 : "If anything were badly wrong they would have picked it up and anything that still might be wrong (and this is a possibility for EVERYONE, not just us guys with the odd marker) will be dealable with." Which has made me feel much better

Any sign of baby yet?

Original poster
Toppy · 18/09/2009 20:06

OMG - please don't worry about not worrying enough. If this thread has shown anything so far it is that we all worry way too much when presented with an isolated marker. Having said that I think the minute you start trying to conceive is the beginning of a lifetime of worry. Comes with the territory

NOTHING is happening this end. DS1 was a week early and I have been totally geared up for the same this time round so really feel like I am killing time now. Having said that I still can't quite believe that this bump means a baby is coming.
I would just love to be able to log on later this weekend and update!

OP posts:
1mum1 · 18/09/2009 20:28

Well lets hope something starts happening with the little one soon...so exciting - looking forward to the update. All the very best Toppy x

Original poster
Toppy · 24/09/2009 16:22

Hi All - I am so glad to be able to update this thread with lovely news. Baby Toppy arrived on Tuesday morning - under water at Chelsea and Westminster completely intact in her bag ! She is apparently 100% healthy with no signs of anything that my two soft markers might have indicated. I really hope that all of you who have posted on this thread with similar concerns have equally happy outcomes and that our thread remains a reassuring place for anyone faced with a reverse flow in the ductus venosus. Good luck

OP posts:
Vallmo · 24/09/2009 16:26

Oh Toppy - Congratulations!!! That is such fantastic news! I am so pleased for you and it is so reassuring to hear that your baby is 100% well and healthy! Brilliant brilliant news!!!

bexincornwall · 24/09/2009 18:41

Congratulations Toppy - such good news & I've heard that being born intact in the bag is really lucky! Its feels like such a long time ago that all the worries started and it is fantastically reassuring to hear such lovely news. I'm booked in for my c-section (related to problems last time) on the 20th October & will update once I'm up and about afterwards, but for now I've had a scan today and everything looks fine - he weighs 6lb at 35+2 and no signs of any problems, so fingers crossed!

Sunnydale · 30/09/2009 14:54

Hello
I've just read this thread for the first time and wanted to say congrats to Toppy and also to bump it up. I had a similar experience last summer - sadly the outcome was not good for me but I am pg again and extremely worried about my 12w scan. I wish I'd found such an informative and supportive thread this time last year. I had no idea that reverse flow on its own is not necessarily anything to worry about, and will bear it in mind this time when my inevitably dreadful 12 week scan results are given me (I am 39). All the best to all of you.

Comma2 · 30/09/2009 15:47

Ugh, you have had me bawl my way through this. Shouldn't read this at 35 weeks. Massive congrats to Toppy and the best of luck to everybody else!

Vallmo · 02/10/2009 12:59

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to update this thread to give some reassurance to women in the same situation as I had my 20 week scan yesterday (found a reverse flow in DV at the 12 week scan). We had a full echocardiogram before the actual scan itself to look at the heart in detail. And - thank God! - everything is absolutely fine and normal! I am so relieved and happy and it is starting to feel a bit more real now. I also find that I can really look forward to carrying and having this baby in a different way now than I was before, when all the excitement carried traces of worries as well, which put a dampner on the happiness of being pregnant.

The senior doctor performing the scan said that they still don't know with certainty why the reverse flow happens and exactly what implications it can have, other than that combined with the lack of finding a nasal bone and high NF measurement it can indicate an increased risk for Down's syndrome.

I am hoping and wishing that everyone else here who have been diagnosed with a reverse flow in DV will have equally happy outcomes as many of the women on this thread have reported since being diagnosed (including myself so far!). Best wishes to you all!

1mum1 · 02/10/2009 18:52

Congratulations Toppy!

So glad all went ok - well done - such lovely news!

xx

Original poster
Toppy · 04/10/2009 21:15

Ah - thanks ladies. I am in pink shiny newborn heaven. It is bliss.

Vallmo - just great great news. What a release for you.
Sunnydale - best of luck with your scan. I am a similar age and my results weren't too dreadful so stay positive !
Comma and Bex - almost there. Let us know how it goes

x

OP posts:
Gill5555 · 04/10/2009 22:47

Hi Vallmo, am really pleased for you on the 20 week scan. I've got mine tomorrow, with an appointment with the cardiologist first. Have been feeling so much more positive since reading this thread - but am a bit nervous tonight! Hope everything goes ok - will post with outcome.

Toppy - congrats, your comments really helped! Baby sounds wonderful. xx

Vallmo · 05/10/2009 14:16

Gill5555 - Thank you so much! Keeping my fingers crossed for your scan today, really hope it all goes well. It's only natural to be feeling nervous... I was almost in tears before I even got into the hospital! Is someone going with you to the scan?

Gill5555 · 05/10/2009 20:25

Hi, the scan showed the heart was ok - big relief. But they did find moderate echogenic bowel...the more you look the more you find...

Apparently this can be a soft marker for cystic fibrosis (CF), baby swallowing blood or virul infection.

I was tested for CF when I had the CVS, which was negative. So now they are testing for viruses. If no virus shows up then it could simply be because baby swallowed blood when I had the CVS.

Another scan in a month's time. More waiting!!

Vallmo · 06/10/2009 14:33

Gill5555 - Glad to hear the little heart is OK. Sorry you're having to go through so much waiting and worrying. Hopefully everything will be just fine in the end. At least the really big risks of heart complications have now been ruled out which should give you some comfort but I know, it is difficult not to worry about things unless you are specifically told that EVERYTHING is perfectly fine!