Breech Baby - Does Bougainvillea Flower Essence Really Work?

[browny]

Hi, I had a presentation scan on Friday and my baby is breech, I've an appointment with the Breech clinic on Tuesday for ecv (I'll only be 37 weeks). I've decided to see what the consultant has to say and try and put off the ecv for a few weeks.

I've heard Bach Bougainville Flower Essence is supposed to help the baby turn, has anyone tried it and if you have, where did you buy it from please?

My local NCT home-birth support lady recommends Moxi sticks, inversion and Pulsatilla too, has anyone tried any of these? I really don't fancy the ecv but will try it if I have to. Thanks for your help .

Has anyone heard of it? x

Sorry, I haven't heard of it. Do you have any aromatherapists or homeopaths near you that you could ask?

Do you know whether baby has always been breech? Some women find a chiropractor skilled in the Webster technique can help (assumes there's an asymetry in the mother's spine/pelvis that's restricting the uterus and preventing the baby from turning) and hypnotherapy has also had some good press.

Have you considered a vaginal breech birth? DD was breech and I declined an ECV - she was born as a breech baby at home with IMs.

Fingers crossed for you

Tangle, thanks for posting, I don't have any aromatherapists or homeopaths local to me (I've checked with NHS Direct), but I have found that my G.P. practices homeopathy and he is going to telephone me on Thursday, so maybe there is something he can prescribe me.

The midwives at my hospital didn't even offer me the option of a breech birth, just an automatic elective c/s... well done you having your baby at home too! Unfortunately IM's arn't an option for us, I would have loved that .

change hospitals browny,. or see Supervisor or head of midwifery, you cannot be forced to have a c,section, if you have had a baby before, it is better, as you have shown you cna get a baby thtough your pelvis. all MWs know how to deliver a breech, they have to, in case of undiagnosed breech. have a google of mary cronk and her words of wisdom on breech birth

not heard of the bougainvillea thing,but have heard of moxi being effective and pulsatilla

speak to www.aims.org.uk if you are being denied a vaginal birth

also, some independednt midwives will amend their charges if you are late booker.

My hospital didn't offer me the option - they said successful ECV or CS. I asked about vaginal birth and they talked about a very medicalised delivery. I said thankyou very much and didn't go back!

If you don't want a section then its worth asking lots of question of anyone you can - ask for an appointment with the Head of Midwifery and discuss the situation. They should have some breech experience within the hospital, if only because something like 4% of babies are still breech at term and half of those are undiagnosed... How do they get born? Even if they claim not to have the skills, if you feel strongly enough you could push for them to contract those skills in (I have heard of this being successfull, so its not a complete wild goose chase). They can advise and recommend, but the hospital cannot TELL you how to have your baby - you have the right to choose and they are obliged to support you in your choice. That said, breech babies is an area where a lot of women do seem to struggle to get support for a "normal" vaginal birth - it would be worth contacting AIMS for the latest on the situation.

As background reading, google Mary Cronk - she's THE breech expert in the UK. Books I found useful were "Breech Birth" by Benna Waites and "Breech Birth: What are my options" by Jane Evans.

Even if finances are tight, its worth talking to IMs - all of the ones I talked to were independent because they were passionate about helping women have a good experience of pregnancy and childbirth, and they can be very accomodating when women have more unusual circumstances and the NHS is being unsupportive. Many will take payment in kind (mine was desperate for someone to offer to do some decorating) or will be happy to look at payment plans - it may not be possible to sort something out but you loose nothing by asking, it might just work out, and if nothing else you'll get a different perspective on the situation.

All that said, fingers crossed your GP can help make the issue turn around

Just seen I cross posted with lulu (again ).

In addition to being a late booker, some IMs will do a reduced post natal package - the standard package is usually very comprehensive in this area so there may be some flexibility there as well.

your posts on breech birth are fantastic tangle

Lulumama, thank you for your advice , this will be my 5th baby but my first breech so I'm completely in the dark with what to expect.

My own community midwife said that if it comes down to it (undiagnosed breech) they HAVE to delivery the baby, but wasn't very reassuring at all. I will go the appointment with my consultant tomorrow(Women's Hosp) and get as much information as I can from him, how much fluid there is around baby and exactly which way baby is lying as they haven't told me the correct name. I have had a c/s but that was 12 years ago now (emergency c/s with general) and really don't like the idea of the old wound being opened up again. I will look at IM's in my local area too.

Tangle, my hospital said the same to me and gave me a really scary looking leaflet which basically made a medicalised delivery sound like torture... a million miles away from my planned 1st homebirth. I'm glad everything went well for you at home, but don't the medical profession scare the living daylights out of you by saying it's not safe and not recommended! Thank you so much for taking the trouble for posting for me. xx

are you are the womens? there is a fabulous community midwife who delivered and Mners undiagnosed breech at home...!

It is worth trying moxa sticks - an acupuncturist can do the treatment. It involves burning a herbal stick (like a large cigar) near your little toe nail on each foot. I know it sounds really odd, and unlikely to work but it has about an 80% success rate so it is well worth ago and completely painless.

Morning Lulumama, yes I'm at the womens, can you remember the name of the midwife? .

Hi greenbeanie, I wonder if you can do the Moxa treatment yourself? I've been in touch with my local NCT homebirth supporter and she said that they're available to buy, I've telephoned a local herb shop and they've never heard of them, but will telephone me back soon .

yes, i wonder if i can say on here re confidentiality etc? are you on CAT? you can CAT me or mail me on lulumama 21 @ hotmail. com

thanks x

I have some moxi sticks I can send you with instructions if you want it's info @ lancashiremidwiferypractice dot co dot uk

You could also try :

Shining a light or using music to try to aid turning (do I sound like a crank yet ?) If you know wehe babies back is start at babies head with a torch or radio and move it toward the symphysis pubis in the direction that your baby would be doing a "tipple over" IYKWIM.

Or you could try thr hot and cold method, a pack of frozen veg up by the head and a warm hot water bottle by the bottom, baby is supposed to move towards the heat (I have known this work).

Adopting the same sort of postion you would for a posterior baby, bottom in the air, hips shoulder width apart for 20-30 mins at a time will help open up the pelvis, it's best to do this when baby is most active as the kicking against the uterus is what helps the baby move position.

Hi browny, yes you can do it yourself - or rather dp can once he has been shown. Quite hard to reach your little toe when 37 wks, also should be done whilst you are on all fours so the baby has more room to turn. Good luck

Lulumama, I've sent you my e-mail address, thanks! .

Curlywurlycremeegg, thank you so much I'd love you send me the Moxa sticks and the instructions, please let me know how much I owe you, I have paypal .

I will try all your suggestions, and you don't sound one bit like a crank... I'll try anything .

My consultant said that baby's bum is quite low in my pelvis and while he was palpating my tummy (without telling me), he tried to lift the baby up... that was painful and made me feel really ill.

I told him that I didn't want the ecv today, but he'd already invited two students into watch him "perform a successful ecv". I had to be quite firm and tell him I wanted to ask him quite a lot of questions before I agreed to it next week. He seemed quite disappointed that he was not going to impress the students, although he was very nice. He said there's a 50% chance of baby turning before next Monday when I am booked in for the ecv. I'm not looking forward to the muscle relaxant injection or another dose of Anti-D . Something else he said worried me, he said sometimes he can be sweating trying to turn a baby, all with no painrelief for the mum, I wonder if I could ask for gas and air while he does it?

Thank you for posting all your advice and please let me know how much I owe you. .xx

Well done for telling the consultant you didn't want the ECV today You can ask for G&A while he does it, and you can also tell him to stop at any point (a Mary Cronk stock phrase is "Stop that at once!" in a very stern tone).

You're right - a lot of medical professionals do seem to do a fantastic job of shroud waving . I know its difficult to get the balance between making patients aware of risks and terrifying them, but it does feel as though they haven't quite got it right. My CMW did a fair amount of shroud waving when we were just talking about a home birth (before we knew DD was breech) along with lots of "I haven't done water birth" "I haven't sited a venflon"..., and totally destroyed our confidence in her - so we were already looking at IMs when the whole breech issue came to light. Going in with some knowledge and already being disenchanted, we didn't really investigate the vaginal breech birth in hospital route as much as we could have - for us it came down to HB with IMs or CS in hospital (partly because I was feeling very cynical by then and didn't trust the obs to keep their forceps to themselves ). I'm still tempted to talk to the midwifery department to find out what the breech birth options would have been.

Fingers crossed for you

Oh - and the bill's in the post

Curlywurlycremeegg, I tried to send an e-mail to [email protected], but it was bounced back to me. My e-mail address is
[email protected]

please send me an e-mail as I'd love you to send me the Moxa sticks, thank you so much .

Tangle, it was quite hard to try and get a word in edgeways when he was examining me as he was talking to the students and midwives in the room at the time and not really speaking to me.

I did ask about having a breech birth at hospital and it sounded horrific... feet in stirups, constantly monitored, having a large cut and forcepts... it sounded like an extraction more than a birth! And the midwife sounded like this would be o.k.!!. I told her that was the exact opposite of how I'd heard a hands-off breech birth should be and said that I would not be going down that route!

I will definately ask for gas and air, if what he did today was painful and rather scary, I think I'll need pain relief if I need the ecv next week!

Thanks Tangle for posting x

Sounds like you had a very similar breech "birth" talk to mine . I think the bit that made me most cross was when, after going through the whole lithotomy, theatre, prepped for a CS "just in case" malarky she got onto people in the room - "it sounds like a lot, but breech birth is so uncommon lots of them would only be there for training". So nice to know they were going to ask my consent for that, then . I know junior staff need training and they do need to maximise their opportunities - but it can start to feel as though you're not a person any more, just a training aid Even bigger well done, under the circumstances

Out of curiosity, did they give you a leaflet detailing all the risks of a CS as well as one telling you about the risks of a breech baby?

It is worth talking to the Head of Midwifery personally (and maybe also the head of the Communtity Midwife Team). The consultant may not know what skills the midwifery team have as a whole, and neither may any individual midwife. I don't know how familiar the consultants would be with the statistics for the births they don't see - and a straightforward vaginal breech birth is a very "normal" affair.

Lots of turning thoughts for your LO

Morning Tangle!,

I wasn't given the leaflet about c/s, but I did have an emergency c/s with my first daughter 12 years ago, I imagine an elective c/s is much calmer with maybe a quicker recovery, but trying not to have that in my mind yet, trying to think positive turning thoughts you see .

Lulumama, said she thinks she knows the names of some people to contact at the Women's Hospital, so I'll wait until she contacts me and then will find out as much information as I can. In the meantime, I spent a while with bum in the air last night and will start with the homeopathic pulsatilla today. I'll keep posting to let you know what's going on, have a lovely day Tangle!.

Ah - I missed that Lulu was sending you numbers. That makes far more sense .

You bringing back all my memories of the oh-so-elegant things I got up to trying to get DD to turn... It's a good job she's cute

Hi, Curlywurlycremeegg, did you manage to send the Moxa sticks? I didn't want you to think that I'd received them and not thanked you .

Hi everybody,
I just stumbled upon this site and see this discussion is kind of outdated, very sad. In fact I have lead a research with Bougainvillea in the 90ies and we found out that this essence is very helpful in cases of breech position. It has been used in a small handful of hospitals in Germany and effectively decreased the number of cesarian sections (-20%). It is very simple to use, just has to be applied on a special zone between the ankle and the achilles heel. I am going to describe this further in a couple of weeks on my youtube account (search for loewenzahnarzt), right now I am very busy but I promise I shall post a little video there.
Best wishes
Dirk