Should elective C sections for no reason be allowed?

[Dori92]

Just curious on people’s opinions on this.

Would like to point out I’m not opting for an elective section.

Thanks 💞

Yep, and first births are statistically the least safe!

On a random side note (but also shows how nature doesn't care less), at least we're not hyenas!

Around 15% of hyena mums don't make it through that first labour and more than half of cubs die during or shortly after birth, mostly from suffocating on the way out.

Because hyenas have large amounts of testosterone, their clitoris develops into a pseudo penis, which they have to give birth through and rips open 😱😱 hence why so many of the mums die.

Random ouch birth fact of the day.

I truly am an advocate for choice around birth preferences, BUT I think more needs to be done in educating women about vaginal deliveries and the process of labour.
Interventions and induction rates are way too high.

Antenatal classes seem a distant memory in my area since covid and it's a shame. More work should be done on preparing women and their birthing partners for labour experiences. Educating them on different interventions so they can make informed decisions.

I have had 3 labours. My first resulted in a second degree tear which was actually completely fine. My second I had a first degree tear but declined stitches. My 3rd labour was twins and baby B delivered breech. No tearing and declined all interventions that were heavily pushed on me because I knew outcomes for the interventions were poor and likely result in a c-section. I think the birthing process is beautiful and very overwhelming. I researched a lot and knew to use different methods to aid coping with the contractions. I knew labouring in water is an excellent pain relief, I knew what transition would be like so I didn't panic and fear it when it began, I knew (after my 1st) that breathing techniques when pushing can decrease the chances of tearing if done correctly. I was aware when medical pressure to intervene was not necessary (I.e. we need to intervene because you haven't progressed enough in the time limit we have set).

I also know that the freedom to opt for a c-section can avoid a lot of birth trauma experienced by women. So I am not against choosing freely. Still, more needs to be done throughout pregnancy to support women in making informed decisions that are right for them. I had so much pressure from consultants to have a c-section with my twins and declined at every opportunity because it was not the easier, safer, or less traumatic option for me, personally.

I think they should be strongly discouraged when there is no medical need.

I find a lot of the anti-c-section discussion pretty arrogant tbh.

Who is to judge whether a woman 'needs' a c-section or not?

Have we not learned from all the maternity scandals in the news? There are many, many cases of dead women and babies where women were judged by medical staff not to 'need' c-sections and told to keep labouring naturally and they died and their babies died and these decisions were slammed in hindsight.

The truth is that giving birth can be dangerous, however you do it. Low risk can become high risk in the blink of an eye.

In these circumstances, the only ethical thing to do is equip women with the information and support to understand the risks involved in the various options and support them wholeheartedly in their decisions.

Anyone who thinks they can look a pregnant woman in the eye and say "it's ok, you're low risk, you don't need a c-section because you're 100% going to be absolutely fine, and it's ok for me to disenfranchise you and make this decision for you" should really take a long, hard look at themselves. Because they can't make this promise and they can't give this assurance.

You obviously have a bit of frustration towards mothers who decide to have an elective c-section because you believe the hospital are prioritising them over you.

Maternal choice is important and there is always a reason even if that reason isn’t medical.

As a mum who had an elective C-section with their first and will opt for another one with their second, emergencies should always take priority over me if me and baby are doing well.

If your hospital are not prioritising your situation then they either truly believe that it is not an emergency for you and that you and baby can wait a bit longer OR they are clearly not following correct procedure if you seriously need baby out now.

If your baby is fine and well and can wait a couple of days then perhaps that is why they have prioritised a woman who is having an elective section who may have been waiting a few days on the waiting list to have one.

Are you just assuming these woman are having electives? Although my C-section was not an emergency and was classed as an elective, my son did have a high heartrate and was unwell in the NICU for eight days after.

You’re entitled to your opinion and although I agree that C-section is major surgery and is definitely not the easy option.

First of all, there are many reasons why someone may chose a C-section for no medical need. Perhaps they had to vagina birth trauma in their previous pregnancy. Perhaps I have a terrifying fear of birth. Perhaps like me, you have had a previous loss and did your research as well as speaking to a consultant undecided that a C-section would be the best route to take.

I think to assume that most women choose elective C-section because they think that it’s the easy option is quite naive. I don’t think anyone goes into major surgery believing that this will easy.

My elective C-section was far from horrific, my recovery was pretty good. My C-section was the calm after nine months of anxiety. My baby was unwell in the NICU for 8 days and I was able to get up and go and see him. I felt pretty normal after two weeks. I know this isn’t everyone’s experience and if you had a horrific experience, I’m really sorry for that.

I’m guessing OP just wants to meet her baby and because her baby is breech She believes that takes priority over elective C-section. But a breech baby who is sitting tight and doing well and a mother who is doing is most likely not class as an emergency, which is why she is in the same list as electives. That’s just my guess.

If the previous poster is right...
A section because your baby is breech is still an elective section if you aren’t in labour.
I had an elective section for vasa previa (5% chance of a live vaginal birth, 95% survival in a section) and it was called an elective section throughout. I wasn’t in labour and it was clear to me that if anyone scheduled for an elective section turned up in active labour, I would have to wait.

I used to think not and was definitely on board with the "for no reason" narrative.

Then I allowed my lack of nuance to be tempered by lived experience, listening and compassion and realised that just because I had lived through a traumatic first birth women should not have to undergo such a significant medical event in fear and dread, and that these were sufficiently valid reasons.

I had two very different vaginal births, and I'm glad, but the thought of some poor woman approaching her due date in terror instead of joyous anticipation is too sad to contemplate, so while we can, let women choose.

There's always a reason. A c section isn't the easy choice. People shouldn't be judgemental.

Prioritisation is different from choice. Of course it makes sense to prioritise clinical emergencies, but that doesn't mean removing choice of treatment from others. It means they have to wait. The two seem to be being confused in some posts.

Haha a fellow hyena person! I always pop up to talk about hyenas and their penile clitorises (clitori?) when people say birth is a natural process and our bodies are designed to do it.

Nature is not our friend.

Yes, no c sections for anyone and no pain relief either, especially for FTM's like you OP.
I assume you're going the full mother earth route and will be declining any pain relief too, you know be a proper martyr 🙄.
Let's pretend the UK is now Afghanistan.

There’s nothing more natural than having at least one dead baby. Unnatural birth and healthcare every time please.

!! I never understand this ‘it’s a natural process’ nonsense. Death is a natural process too and we tend to do all we can to avoid that by ‘interfering with nature’.

HRT - not natural - outlaw it - also birth control. Cancer and deterioration of knees and hip joints, cataracts and other age degenerative conditions etc are all likewise natural - do you think we should avoid all medical treatment and interventions for those too? Or is it only where women are the patients that you think the state should mandate what’s permissible?

NICE and other medical agencies believe that elective section is a valid choice that is cost neutral to the state. Perhaps listen to the experts and not the ‘natural is always best ‘ crackpots.

Fine - have a completely natural experience yourself if that’s what you’re comfortable with - let others exercise their bodily autonomy as they think fit in this imperfect world where you’ll see from statistics that in many maternity hospitals the likelihood of a first time mother having an intervention free natural birth is way less than fifty per cent!

No they shouldn't. Vaginally births are better for the long term health of babies. C-sections are much more expensive. If you don't want vaginal birth because you're scared, or worried about stretching it, or birth being a bit hard, you should pay to go private. I don't think the NHS can afford to pander to every whim. That's one of the reasons it's a seemingly bottomless pit.
I've given birth twice. It was hard and a bit scary, but that's childbirth. We should be grateful for advancements we have, which have made it loads safer and less painful than it has ever been.

On the cost side, I’m not sure if it makes that big a difference anyway. My sister went private for giving birth and actually a c section package was a bit cheaper than the natural delivery package because it’s easier to plan and quicker. From starting to be prepped to ready to be discharged it was 24 hours, many natural births will be longer all in all, you might easily labour for several hours, or need an induction, and then still spend a night in hospital to recover. It obviously takes a skilled team to do the section, but unless it is an absolutely easy natural birth, it will also require various staff before/during/after to assist.

They’re not more expensive. NICE stated that there is very little in it cost wise when the NHS takes into account the long term care costs too for pelvic damage etc occurring during natural birth.

And another point. - haven’t you seen the recent reports in the press about the failings in midwifery training? At least with a section you’ll be treated by doctors

I don't think that is happening OP. The elective list always gets bumped for higher medical need, especially those who are elective for lower physical risk reasons. If your baby is footling breach, I'm sure you'd be added to the emergency list, unless they want to book in now for a particular date?

How someone else gives birth is not your business. ELCS is not an "easy" route to take (or obtain), and for maternal request reasons will likely be a result of mental health reasons, or mental and physical reasons following a traumatic previous vaginal birth, in addition to all those physical health reasons that means a woman has been asked by the medical professionals to have a CS rather than try vaginal.

Sorry, the fact that maternal morbidity has plunged and the average life expectancy for women has shot up since the advent of modern medicine, including c sections, suggests that surgical births are very much part of a safer-not better necessarily, but safer-birth. I'm sorry that you had an awful time and I'm glad that you found the next one so much better, but other women aren't willing to risk life changing injuries and I for one am so, so glad to have been given the option! And I'm also speaking as one who would have died during my birth and probably my mum too, had c section not been available.

Why would you not do even the most basic of research before posting this dross?

What a bizarre response… so because I don’t agree that unnecessary major surgery should be an option if it doesn’t need to be, I must also be against all modern medicine and treatment for anything including cancer? Your examples are disorders that are causing symptoms and maybe threat to life (cancer -> needs treatment, cataracts -> needs treatment, knee problems -> needs treatment). Pregnancy is not a disorder, it is a natural process (not quite what sure what’s not to understand about that btw..) so doesn’t need treatment unless something goes wrong. If there are no medical issues requiring a c section then why have risky major surgery. Majority of the people who have experienced trauma like being rushed for an emergency c section or needing forceps because the baby is stuck have had an induction or something else that has interfered with the natural process of things, like an epidural that does affect ability to labour (don’t come at me saying I’m against pain relief, just stating an objective fact that it changes the body’s ability to labour). All mammals experience birth in the way we do, it’s wrong to say it’s not a natural process - it is. Of course things can and do go wrong and we are so lucky to live in a time where we have modern medicine to provide us with appropriate treatment that saves lives. My opinion isn’t not to have any of this, as you bizarrely suggest, but to have it when it is needed. C section for no medical reason -> not needed. Induction for being one day over your due date -> not needed.