Pre Birth Initial Child Protection Conference

[BettyBlue712]

Hi Mumsnet

I hope this is posted in the correct place.

I was recently referred children’s service whilst pregnant. This initially began as a ‘section 17 assessment’. I have been told they are now holding a strategy meeting for a ‘section 47 assessment’ and it will be going to a pre birth initial child protection conference.

I have been told that even before the strategy meeting, assessment and conference my child will be placed on the minimum of a child protection plan whilst pregnant and after birth.

I’m slightly confused as I thought the next step after child protection was removal at birth?

Could anyone advise me on what to expect over the next couple of months, I’m in my second trimester so a little bit to go…

Does the confirmation of a cp early on in pregnancy pretty much mean removal at birth? It’s difficult as I’m trying to predict what the social workers are going to do before they tell me.

@BettyBlue712 the important thing is that you can rationalise and acknowledge when you are clearly saying silly things, obviously in the heat of the moment. You probably know you wouldn't do any of those things but doesn't mean people who don't know you do, which is why you just need to learn to communicate with them in a different way. When you do have a meeting with them, own what you've said, try and see it from their point of view, ask them what their expectations are and you are really going to have to make peace with the fact they will be in your life for the foreseeable. It doesn't have to be forever but right now you need them on your side and I think if you really work with them of course you can turn it around.

Thank you so much for your advice.

Do you think it’s ok to ask for a new social worker? I really want to work with them, I just don’t think it’s going to go anywhere with my current one.

For instance; she came out to my property, commented on how lovely it was and said she felt really positive. The next day she called my baby’s dad and informed him she perceived me to be ‘very unwell’ and that she was telling him so he could ‘safeguard unborn baby’.

I saw multiple other professionals that day and none of them had any negatives to say about me.
When I questioned her on why she said this and why she didn’t call my mental health team, specialist perinatal team etc she replied ‘oh I didn’t think you were that bad!’

I couldn’t quite believe what I was hearing if I’m honest?!

I also had to discuss the termination question with her and I said ‘I guess I have a couple of weeks to decide’ and she started asking me what my stance was on later terminations and if I’d feel comfortable with that.

When I firmly told her I was pro choice and believed ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’ she backed down but I don’t think professionals should be questioning women’s rights and putting their own personal opinion forward in a work setting.

I don’t think a women’s right or decision around terminations should be included in a social work report, should it? Surely that’s going into a bit of a grey area around human rights? Or do I not have rights because of my situation? (Not being difficult that’s a genuine question)

@BettyBlue712 absolutely, request a new one for your own sanity at least, but make sure you write things down and give examples, just as you have been doing on here. Things always seem worse than what they really are when anxiety is high but most things can be worked out and resolved. Just go into the meeting prepared with notes and put your point across calmly and sensibly.

These sound like really positive actions, all designed to be open and honest, and seek the best support possible to keep you and your child safe. Keep going!

I’ve requested a meeting and my midwife who often works with children’s services has emailed on my behalf too.

Hopefully I can get one arranged in the next couple of weeks and enjoy the second half of my pregnancy.

There’s some definite adjustments that I need to make, I can be very defensive but I just need to accept they’ll be around for the next year or so in any case.

@BettyBlue712 honestly I really wish you all the very best of luck and keep us updated on your progress ☺️

Lots and lots of comments, and I’m glad you’ve accessed some more support. But briefly the more you work with them, the better things will be, they cannot promise anything, taking a baby is always a last resort after all other avenues are exhausted, but they cannot make you any promises about the future, no one knows what’s around the corner and it would be highly unprofessional for them to say we won’t do this or we will do that. This does not mean they are planning to take baby or anything, it just means one step at a time, and they can’t make promises.

This is an absolutely appalling statement. Do you know the rates of self harm among teenage girls.., are you saying that those episodes of self harm mean that none of them should be allowed to be mothers in later life? Ludicrous.

I have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. I am also an excellent mother to four wonderfully well cared for, well loved children who have had ZERO input from social services because there has never been any concerns around my ability to parent them well or safely. People with serious mental health conditions can and do parent well the vast majority of the time.

Your comment reeks of ableism. I suppose to your mind someone who is blind, deaf or in a wheelchair shouldn't parent either? How about we remove children from parents with a terminal cancer diagnosis too, given the emotional distress they're likely to experience.

Appalling to you but quite realistic. Sadly I have worked with many adult children of paranoid schizophrenic s or people with intreated bipolar with psychotic features or uncontrolled mania. Its not pretty.

You’re saying ‘untreated’ though…

I’m not untreated and I’m guessing PP isn’t either. I know people who are untreated and would agree they wouldn’t be safe to care for children. I also know people with schizophrenia, bipolar and a myriad of other mental health problems who are treated and brilliant parents.

The right antipsychotic/mood stabiliser/antidepressant can eradicate psychosis/mania/depression and people can live a normal life. It’s not the 1950’s…

Sure but your posts have always given the impression that you reject any advice that runs counter to your wishes. I had the impression that you rejected treatment for your conditions. At any rate you are doing what you want. Don’t let my opinion affect you.

People who are untreated are the minority. Ability to parent should be measured by the same standards as anyone else, on their ability to meet their child’s needs and be a protective factor in their lives. Stating that someone shouldn’t be a parent because of their mental health diagnosis is disgusting and if you’ve worked with vulnerable people you should know all too well that the diagnosis itself is not what determines someone’s ability to be a loving, present or protective parent.

If you had read this thread you’d know I’ve been under CMHT for a couple of years and am now under a SPCMHT.

I will always be under CMHT due to my illness, a bit like someone with a cardiac problem would likely always be under a cardiologist.

I was taken off medication because it was decided I didn’t need it. I have now made the choice to go on a small dose of pregnancy safe medication.

I struggle with people’s perception of mental health problems sometimes. You wouldn’t say that to a person using a wheelchair so why is it ok to speak like that to a person with a mental health problem.

I came to Mumsnet for advice and I’ve taken it and actually managed to set up some really good support for my baby and myself.

I don’t think pushing the narrative that any parent with a SMI should immediately have their child removed and never seen them again is particularly helpful.

Someone with untreated psychosis or mania wouldn’t even be able to write a reasonable well thought out Mumsnet post either.

I agree OP & I’m a bit disappointed at the posters that seem to be either trying to catch you out (saying you’ve posted before), aiming to draw you in to another argument or making sweeping generalisations about parents with mental health conditions. I did actually report some of the posts & mumsnet just said they would take a look. I think you have argued your side very well & like you say you have taken the advice given on this thread.

Someone with untreated psychosis or mania wouldn’t even be able to write a reasonable well thought out Mumsnet post either

That's true, so I hope you don't get puerperal psychosis.

I’m on medication so hopefully this won’t happen.

If it does, I’m fortunate that there’s a MBU close to where I love and I’ve been told I’m high priority for a place is I do become unwell.

At the end of the day, no one knows if I’ll become unwell, so all I can do is keep pushing forward and hope I don’t. If I do, there’s lots of support being put in place

Thank you.

I am really trying! I understand that mental illness and being a parent just don’t go hand in hand for some people and that’s ok.

I’m just so appreciative of the amazing advice some of the posters have given me, you’ve all been such a life line the past few days.

OP - I would explain how frightened you felt, that you know you said things that were wrong in your panic, that you dont believe them and you are sorry and want to establish a good working relationship and know they are there to help you be the best mum you can. Some of my best working relationships have been with clients who have been really angry at me and where we have been able to talk through it after. It made it easier for me to really understand what is going on, see what the clients fears were, and also identify any misunderstandings which lead to the outburst in the first place (and there were always misunderstandings). Granted its MH not SW, but there is a lot of overlap.

You explain yourself really well here. If you find yourself getting very anxious or overwhelmed before the meetings, write down what you want to say and read it out. Ask for times to process what they tell you. You absolutely can turn this around. But if you go back and the person is still hostile or difficult with you, then go to the manager and explain your problems.

My fear and upset often comes out as anger as I’ve always felt showing you’re upset is a weakness. I know it’s ridiculous but I’ve been through quite a lot since my late teens (sa and mh) so I’ve learnt to put a barrier up. A lot of professionals who have worked with me have noticed I soften once I feel safe. I’ve been that person who ‘hates’ my psychiatrist/cpn but now I’ve found a good one built a good relationship I trust them with everything and I know they genuinely want the best for me and baby.

I have tried to approach the social worker but she’s ignored me which I think is a little unprofessional. My midwife works with the children’s services team I’m involved with and she’s emailed them to try and get me some answers which is really helpful.

I don't think you are bring ignored by social care, I suspect there is some decision making happening and they can't give you an answer yet.

I'd prepare yourself for coping with not getting a different social worker. You might get one, nothing is certain. But given your needs, I'd imagine you will struggle if this decision doesn't go your way and they want you to work with the existing SW. Therefore I think you'll benefit from thinking through how you'll manage if you hear that decision.

I know this social worker works as part of the assessor team so she’s putting together the section 17/47 report and will be the social worker at the initial child protection conference but after the conference it will move to another social worker from a different department.

I want the reports to be a positive as possible and after my negative start with her I don’t think they will be. I am just going to apologise and explain I am really frightened and that’s why I have come across angry/defensive towards her. Even if there’s things I disagree with I’m just going to smile and nod and accept every bit of support they offer me.

I’m just so worried they will overlook me more readily because my ex partner is seen so positively to them.

He’s really involved with the council, does a lot of work for them and one of his closest professional friends is the Chief Exec of the council children’s services work under.

If I worked with my ex instead of us being assessed (he hasn’t actually been assessed, as he already has children and seen as positive from the outset) separately I’d have a much better chance.

Imagine if you flip a coin, twice. Just because you got heads last time makes zero difference to if you get heads next time.

I'm using this example to explain the probability differences between the assessment of you and babys dad. The two decisions are entirely independent of each other. It's not a choice. They will not go "this parent is better than that one". The two decisions have no bearing on each other.

So they will assess you and decide - can this parent take care of the child, with support ir without? Yes/No. Separately they will ask the same of the other parent. They may get two Yes answers, two No answers, or one Yes and one No. The fact that one is a Yes (or no) is of no relevance to the other decision.

So just concentrate on you. If they find babys dad able to look after baby will make no difference to if they find you able to, or not.

It is possible she hasn't ignored you - she is likely to be busy with lots of cases.

I suggest that you are as clear as you can be.....

"I am really sorry about the way I reacted at our last appointment. I was really shocked and I am aware that it was a complete overreaction. Can you help me understand what I need to do to keep my baby"

... and then you need to work with them and not be so defensive.

I think this is the best option, thank you!

I’m not going to bother has as I have messaged her twice with no response. I will wait for her or the manager to contact me and apologise etc.