Pre Birth Initial Child Protection Conference

[BettyBlue712]

Hi Mumsnet

I hope this is posted in the correct place.

I was recently referred children’s service whilst pregnant. This initially began as a ‘section 17 assessment’. I have been told they are now holding a strategy meeting for a ‘section 47 assessment’ and it will be going to a pre birth initial child protection conference.

I have been told that even before the strategy meeting, assessment and conference my child will be placed on the minimum of a child protection plan whilst pregnant and after birth.

I’m slightly confused as I thought the next step after child protection was removal at birth?

Could anyone advise me on what to expect over the next couple of months, I’m in my second trimester so a little bit to go…

Does the confirmation of a cp early on in pregnancy pretty much mean removal at birth? It’s difficult as I’m trying to predict what the social workers are going to do before they tell me.

She's not being threatened with removal of her child. A child protection conference does not imply removal. The threat is in her own mind.

OP has clearly said that’s not her so why don’t you offer some helpful advice to someone who is clearly fragile and asking for help instead of saying this ?

I think it's important to show baby can go to known and trusted family when you're unwell. In the only case I knew of like this, the child was taken because only foster care would be available during future hospitalisations and this wasn't considered acceptable. It was the reason given.

I am lucky in the sense my Mum can look after baby if I was hospitalised (although I haven’t been in 2.5 years)

Baby’s Dad would also be willing to look after them I believe.

OP I’m in a role in healthcare where I have supported several moms to parent with diagnoses and experiences of psychosis (prior to and after birth). Having poor histories of mental health doesn’t make someone unable to parent, not recognizing vulnerabilities (and strengths), not engaging with services or support, not being honest about challenges - can be problems. I very much understand the fear of systems and the power they are perceived to have but generally, child removal is a (very) last resort. Are you engaging with your MH Team? Have you perinatal mental health support? (in most areas you can self refer to these, and often they are better resources than general adult services, and experienced with PPPsychosis). In your shoes I’d ask to speak with a social services manager, explain the relationship breakdown with your current SW, and that you considered termination but didn’t follow through. That you’d like to work with them (ideally someone new) to work towards keeping baby with you and ask them what they need of you for this to happen. MBU (if you are well) may be hard to secure (beds are limited) but it may be being raised as somewhere you could seek support - if needed - to ensure you and baby are safe. It may be worth asking perinatal services if they have a peer support worker/lived experience worker (the MBU’s in my locality do, and often it helps reduce fear to hear from someone that’s been directly cared for at an MBU what it was like and how it helped them/what it meant for them).

To answer your first questions: A child protection order in pregnancy can mean a range of things: but typically the pathway is assessment before removal! Even if an ICO (interim care order) is granted following assessment, often the plan is for shared care and supported care (ie working with social workers perhaps in a residential assessment place). Parents can and do ‘end’ the assessment process and live without services with their children. Being asked to start the process does absolutely not mean it’s an inevitable conveyor belt to having your child removed.

Sounds like you’ve time on your side, a support in your mum and in friends. Time for some deep breaths. If you can: use those supports to think about the support you’d need in a few scenarios:

1. if you stay well
2. if you do experience psychosis symptoms again - have a care plan for yourself and baba. There are several charity and third sector organizations that also offer support for mums who parent with mental health difficulties - https://pandasfoundation.org.uk/what-is-pnd/postpartum-psychosis/ is one that comes to mind but there are others. The https://www.app-network.org/get-help/peer-support-for-postpartum-psychosis/ is another. I know a lot of what I’ve said so far has been about acknowledging risk, but there are also a lot of supportive spaces available that aren’t all fear based.

Conscious you’ve posted updates since I started typing this, but thinking of you this evening. It’s hard to keep a clear head when feeling scared and stressed. Hope you can take care of yourself this evening x

I can understand why you feel scared and overwhelmed, plus alone in all of this. You must feel everyone and the system is against you, but they're not. They want the same as you, the best outcome for your baby.
A CP conference does not mean your baby will necessarily be removed, it gives you chance to demonstrate you understand the risks to your child but plan with professionals how the child can be safe and access support for this.
Cancelling your NHS care will escalate things and increase the risk of you not being able to keep your baby. Call tomorrow to rearrange it again explaining you were scared by all the assessments and panicked. It is really positive you have attended everything to date.
Like others have mentioned, request an advocate to support you through this process. If your Mum is willing to support you, they won 't see her as biased, they will see her as a protective factor for your baby IF she is willing to be open to the involvement of Social Worker. Sometimes mothers live with their baby and the baby's grandparents who have a special guardianship order for the child.
Planning to leave the country is not putting your baby's needs above your own, which is what this is all about. All new mothers need a lot of support, your mental health means you are likely to need this support more than most.Being abroad will make things worse for both yourself and the baby. New mother's with mental health diagnosis can deteriorate after giving birth.
You need to demonstrate you understand why everyone has concerns and that you accept you will need support to parent a child, accept all the support offered and engage with everything, hard though it may be. A mother and baby unit may help you demonstrate your ability to care for your child.
Above all focus on your child's needs

Thank you so much for your lovely post! It is so supportive x

Hi, sorry no expert here but it looks like you have had some really good advice that hopefully will help. Just forget the idea of going abroad to give birth, it seems unrealistic, what do you think would happen then? Let your mum and specialist services support you. Best of luck!

I feel that you are seeking 100% certainty about what will happen, but no one can give you (or anyone else that) because life is not completely certain. You may decompensate, or get overwhelmed. Showing them you understand these risks, have plans in place and are engaging with support will give you the best chance of supporting your baby appropriately and therefore keeping her with you. In general, SS really are not looking to take babies away. But they do have to be careful - if something did happen to your baby because you were psychotic and no one knew, it would be a tragedy and a scandal.

My plan is to leave the country if I was told my child would be removed so I need a good idea early on as to their plan for baby

So you want people to give you advice to help you abscond and put the baby at risk. I think the welfare of the baby should be your only interest, not what you prefer.

My plan is to leave the country if I was told my child would be removed so I need a good idea early on as to their plan for baby

You should get in touch with the other poster, who circumstances are exactly like yours, because she's also intending to leave the country, and has also just severed connections with her midwife.

a bipolar parent will effect a child. It is likely that a child with a bipolar parent will become bipolar themselves.
psychosis is serious. Suicidal ideation is also serious.
they’re having all these conferences about protecting your child, but have they mentioned anything about getting you mental health support and or medication

And you've had puerperal psychosis, which resulted in your son being placed permanently with his dad.

This new pregnancy is about 15 weeks and it's a girl.

You might as well tell the truth. We'll support you, don't worry. If you need to talk all of this through, keep posting.

Hi OP,

I am not a social worker but I am a Psychologist specialising in children and young people, and I work closely with social care.

if you are not comfortable with your current social worker, ask for re-allocation. Without having a lot of detail to your circumstances nobody here can assess whether your child will remain under your care- but what I do know is that social care want to make sure you have every opportunity to stay with your baby. I’ve seen many many cases (from a psychological perspective) and never seen an involuntary permanent removal. I’ve been to two child protection conferences this week and we are absolutely nowhere near considering a child removal for either, it’s simply a process to bring teams together to provide more support. Your social worker should reassure you about this, I really think you need to speak more with them. I suppose trying to think about it from a risk perspective what they might be seeing now is that you cancelled your antenatal care, have had a period of being unwell recently and this in itself would warrant a child protection conference. You wouldn’t have your child removed for these reasons alone, you would be speaking with a group of professionals about what needs to be in place to support you (MBU/ anticipatory post Partum psychosis).

Please don’t leave the country. I don’t know the legalities around this but it would not bode well leaving the country against medical advice/ without paternal permission. You would certainly be losing your baby if you did go abroad under these circumstances and then and got seriously unwell in the postpartum period (I’m assuming you know that unfortunately your MH risk will be quite high in the beginning phases of parenthood).

Regardless of your views and feelings, you need to go to your antenatal appointments. This would be seen as neglectful to willingly miss medical appointments (even though it sounds as though your intention for doing this is to protect your baby), your baby needs to be monitored. These appointments are theirs and it is your job to take him/her.

it sounds tricky OP- honestly I really think that your plans to try and protect yourself and your baby will end up having the opposite outcome- those behaviours are the sorts of things (running away/ misleading about termination/ missing important medical checks) that would end up with them being removed. Just be present, ask for help, be as honest as you can and with the right support there will be no reason to remove them from you.

I am looking for 100% reassurance that they won’t take my baby. I have asked them for that but they won’t give it to me and I can’t understand why? Surely if they weren’t planning on removal they would just say that?

I get very upset as my illness is not my fault. I didn’t do anything to exacerbate my illness, it’s just something that developed in my late teens/early twenties.

I don’t know how to get over being ‘lumped in’ with women who make a conscious choice to take drugs, use alcohol and commit crimes and therefore are losing their children. I’m being punished for something that’s not my fault.

It all feels very much ‘if you become unwell we’ll escalate your case’ and considering child protection is the lowest form of interaction they’re looking at the next is removal? This makes it really, really hard for me to be honest when I’m unwell and I’m so so worried about developing psychotic features or having a manic episode as it feels if I do I lose my baby but at the same time it’s out of my control

I’m sorry but that isn’t me, I haven’t had the gender of my baby confirmed.

In any case it doesn’t sound like posters were very sympathetic towards the previous poster in a similar situation to me.

We'll never be able to check, because that thread was deleted.

Not as a result of people being unsupportive though.

I have decided to ring children’s services tomorrow and ask for contact with the team manager.

I’m going to ask for a meeting with the manager to discuss my concerns and explain my anxieties open and honestly. I’m also going to follow up everything with an email so there’s a paper trail.

I’m going to explain that I was considering a termination due to the extreme amount of stress surrounding the situation and that I cancelled my antenatal care due to the termination plan but that I haven’t missed any appointments and will reinstate it.

I’m going to be honest and explain I’ve had some breakthrough psychotic symptoms and will be starting on pregnancy safe medication in the next few weeks (I need a specialist consultant to prescribe medication).

I’m going to ask if there’s a better way for me to be assessed. As currently it feels very much ‘if you become unwell we will take your baby’ when it could maybe be ‘if you become unwell we will support you to go into a MBU, live with a family member etc’.

It currently feels like they’re assessing me in the same way they would assess a drug user. A drug user is making a choice to use drugs during pregnancy whereas if I become unwell it’s not because of anything I have done or not done, it’s just the nature of mental health surrounding pregnancy. I think there’s a better way to assess and support someone with my complex situation.

I am lastly going to ask for a change of social worker and then bang on the door of every mh team until someone can get me a medication review and a bit of extra support.

Does this sound ok? If there’s anything you don’t agree with or wouldn’t say then please let me know as I really appreciate all of this advice

I am very sorry you are in this situation, which is not of your choosing or because of choices you have made. You have been given a lot of reassurance on here but I can understand why you would still be anxious in this situation. Unfortunately in your anxiety you are seeking answers/clarity which cannot be given to you.

I can’t understand why? Surely if they weren’t planning on removal they would just say that

No one, including you, knows how things are going to go. You could have the baby, sail through and be fine. You could have a MH wobble, but respond well to treatment. Or you could become floridly psychotic and a danger to yourself and the baby. They cant say 100% what will happen and what they will then have to do.

All that you can do is to work with them as much as possible, accept every type of health offered and lay out your case and concerns as clearly as you have on here. That will maximize your chance of the outcome you want.

Perhaps rather than seeing yourself as 'lumped in with' you could try to see this as being able to access help which is in short supply. I have had clients who would love to get peri and post natal support but have not met the criteria. The help is not meant to punish but to help. No one involved here likes taking babies from their parents - and I speak as someone who has done this kind of work in the past. I get it is hard to trust them and the process. But the more you with hold, pull back, shut down - the more concerned they will be.

Thank you for your post, it’s really helpful.

You are right. I do get really upset when I attend meetings and I’m sat next to parents in the waiting area who smell like weed, using bad language in front of children, yet their children are still with them! Maybe the support they’re offering me is different to the help that family gets offered…

It just hurts when I’ve done nothing ‘wrong’ as such and I’m being punished

Please* *can you stop denigrating drug addicted parents.

People have denigrated me for being a mental health parent.

My point is; adults who actively choose to use drugs are making a conscious choice to do so.

I have never made a choice to become mentally unstable and unwell? Funnily enough a large proportion of people with my diagnosis use drugs as a way of self medicating.

It’s simply something I could never agree with. They’re making a bad choice. I have an illness, in the same way people have diabetes or MS.

Do you hate people with mental health problems that much you think children are better off with a heroin addict over someone with an actual illness.

I have schizophrenia as part of my diagnosis, basically everyone with this illness is using illicit substances to cope; could never ever be me!

I have an illness, in the same way people have diabetes or MS

Addiction is an illness.

Not true. They made a choice to consume their first drugs, that’s a choice. It may become an illness but it started as a choice.

I did not choose to have a serious mental illness and never have other people with any other chronic health problem.

I have been lower than most people had given the opportunity to take drugs more than once - never have and never will because it only makes things worst.

I’m going to check out now as I don’t want this to turn negative. I appreciate you have your opinion like I have mine.

Take care

*You are right. I do get really upset when I attend meetings and I’m sat next to parents in the waiting area who smell like weed, using bad language in front of children, yet their children are still with them! Maybe the support they’re offering me is different to the help that family gets offered…

It just hurts when I’ve done nothing ‘wrong’ as such and I’m being punished*

I think most of us would not like that waiting room situation. You have not done anything wrong. But please try to think that rather than punishing, this is meant to help. The aim is to make your childs life as good as possible. And the primary way they will want to do that is to support you.

As for not denigrating drug addicted parents - I will if I want. I have worked with many many abused children over the years. I would much rather work with a responsible person with MH challenges than an addict, having seen first hand the havoc that can cause in childrens lives. And the active choices being made. I worked with children sold into abuse in exchange for drugs. Who had children named by other people because they could not be bothered to name them or who just left them places and never picked them up. 5 year olds who tried to hang themselves because their lives were so miserable with parents off their faces.. Have had parents excuse themselves from meetings to use, and really think they could hide what they had been doing. And one particularly awful case where dad got a bad dose, was tripping and set fire to himself in front of his child, after saying it was the kids fault. If someone has tried to stop and is struggling I have more empathy and would want to help and support them. But too many users love their habits more than their children. So I will say I would much rather work with OP and feel much more positive about her than most of the addicts I met.