Dads and Ante-natal Scans

[Tom]

I wondered if I could tap into people's experiences of this one: We are lobbying the DTI to give expectant fathers the right to have time off work to attend ante-natal scans; the 12 week dating one, the 18 week abnormality scan and any subsequent ones (usually only done if an abnormality has been discovered).

We think that these scans are really important for expectant dads - while mum-to-be has been going through 12 weeks of physical changes, the scan is often the first time a dad-to-be really feels the "reality" of the pregnancy and impending parenthood. For me, it was an increadibly powerful experience that really drew me into the preparation for parenthood and supporting my wife. The 18 week scan was amazing, because the foetus looked so much more like a baby. They discovered a problem, and I'm glad I was around to support my wife, who was quite shaken by it. We had a few more to investigate the potential problem, and I'm very glad I was there - they were anxious times. I think we should get the right to have a couple fo hours off to attend these scans - what do others think?

What are other people's experiences - what impact did the scan have on dad-to-be?

Yes, I agree that it's so difficult to achieve a daily balance between our personal development and family life. Yes, things are in a state of flux. Could I just add, it's so easy to get involved in the day to day changes, the business and hassles of living, working away from the home and in the home, that you lose sight of the bigger picture.

You have to sit back from time to time, really think what is important for you alone, not just you as a mother, a career professional, a wife etc. If you don't do this for yourself, no one else will - or can, and you end up balancing everyone elses expectations of you.

Tom, I thought this might interest you, especially as this may mirror what many fathers in full time work are experiencing.

I have just had a discussion with the Human Resources managers, male and female, on this issue of unpaid time off for dependents. To sum up: Yes I do have a right to unpaid leave as detailed in the guidelines, but HR, acting for the company, would strongly prefer me to use up some of my holiday first. All employees here have an entitlement to 4 'odd' days holiday, on top of their 4 week holiday entitlement. These 4 days are to be used for unexpected crises etc. If they are being swallowed up as holiday, the company might review this entitlement and withdraw them for all employees.

The company does not expect me to use all my 4 weeks holiday for family crisis, but equally does not expect me to take more than 1 or 2 days of unpaid time off for dependents.

They would prefer me to take the 4 odd days first as a goodwill gesture and to help balance the books. If I take unpaid leave, my absence still costs the company money.

All absences(illness, holiday and unpaid leave)go down on our atttendance record. Despite being aware of the right not to be penalised for taking unpaid leave, the company might question why an employee was absent for more days than usual. If a company decision was made based on attendance records, dependance on unpaid leave would not look good. Ultimately the company might question why that person could not organise more back-up.

They did not feel that employees with children deserved different treatment to childless emloyees. They realised that the right to unpaid leave is extended to all employees, with or without children, but had not experienced many people in the company wanting it or needing it.

I am trying very, very hard to make all the above sound as neutral as possible. At the end of the day, when I have a sick child or childminder - an occurance likely to happen in any one year more than my 4 odd days holiday and for more than that 1 or 2 days unpaid leave - I am either going to lose my holiday or get frowned on at work.

Thank goodness I have a partner who can step in. How on earth could a single mum or dad cope??

Tigermoth - I don't like the sound of that. Surely a right is a right so it's just tough what they would "prefer". I would have some sympathy if it was a small company but it doesn't seem as though that's the case.

Separately, our HR department have finally announced a review of their maternity policy. I work for one of the world's largest banks and its maternity policy is strictly statutory minimum (i.e. 6 weeks pay at 90% and then SMP). If anyone has got the time, I'd really appreciate it if they vould just jot down whether their employer offers anything above the statutory minimum as I want to make a submission to the benefits committee. Many thanks.

I work for the country's most penny-pinching (and richest) local authority, not a million miles from you Bells I suspect. We get 6 weeks at 90%, then 12 weeks at 50% salary plus SMP. We have the right to extend this to 40 weeks, the rest of it being completely unpaid.
Go for it!

Bells I work for a local authority (I'm told one of the best for maternity). Because I had 3 yrs service I got 28 weeks full pay!!! and upto 40 weeks off in total. I didn't realise how lucky I was until I started using this site. There are some good reasons to go into teaching. Why aren't all aurthorites the same?

Calling anyone who works for a private company, large or small. How easy have you found it to take unpaid time off for dependents? I'd really like to compare my experience ( see my previous message) with others.

Tigermoth, I guess it depends on your type of work (what do you do?). i work for a consultancy, so it is easier to take time off unpaid, as employees are expected to juggle their own time to suit individual projects. Having said that, I wondered if these 4 days you taked about are standard for all companies, or just yours. My experience has shown that employers are pretty good about unexpected absences. i sypathise with them about people who take the piss. i have tried to remove a member of staff for continually going awol and turning up late. It is really difficult to prove anything, and this person is a burden to the rest of us who have to cover his tracks. I do think parents should play fair and use some of their holidays for certain emergencies, it works both ways.

Lil, it's a grey area, isn't it? To answer your question: The 4 extra days holiday are not standard.It is our company practice. I suppose that's why they feel they have a right to specify that these days should be taken by parents for unforeseen child emergencies. I do not really have an issue about using this up for child-related things, although to my mind, the nature of any holiday is surely that it is your time out and so it should be a private matter how you spend it. I do not want to have to tell HR how I have spent these 4 days before asking for any unpaid leave - but I will for the sake of my job. Just a niggle.

I work for a large creative company, with over 300 employees. I'm on the creative side. Six other people do a similar job to me and so if I am suddenly absent, they would have the knowledge and, hopefully, the time to pick up my projects. I don't attend lots of meetings, but have to be at my workstation throughout the day. So there is little scope to juggle my time ie attend a doctors appointment on the way to a client meeting. We have a set 1 hour lunchhour.
Any absence outside these hours, therefore, is immediately noted. Unpaid leave for dependents gives me some valued flexibility in my working life, without having to 'ask favours', go through a huge monologue about my private life and cringe to my superiors quite so much. Because it's unpaid and because it's my legal right.

I agree that there has to be come give and take, and I largely agree with your views on p* takers. I'd just like to see exactly how this new right we all have is working in practice.

We have a big time p*taker where I work. She is the departmental secretary and in the past 3 years has taken an average of 25% off as unexplained absences. In the year I had my baby, she had longer off though unspecified "illness" than I had maternity leave. When her father died she disappeared for 4 weeks although our bank's policy is 3 days bereavement leave. The irritation is that she monitors the rest of us like a hawk - if for example we leave early for a family engagement then that is a half day's leave automatically marked down.

I just think that if employers create an environment in which those with genuine problems (i.e. ill children) are reasonably allowed to have the time to deal with it, they will be rewarded through loyalty. In my experience, it isn't the mothers with young children that take liberties. They are usually very conscientious and do their utmost to arrange cover and make sure that while they are at work, they focus on working hard.

I agree that it is give and take but employers do need to recognise that they need to be flexible in allowing staff to deal with difficulties at home and equally, staff need to acknowledge that flexibility by sometimes giving that little bit extra back.

Spot on Croppy - in many ways, I think parents are sometimes far more highly motivated in our jobs - after all, our kids depend on our income - we really can't afford to lose our work.

Back to scans, I was wondering if anyone had had or has any info on one of the new colour scans as seen on the news the other day. I can't find the article I read in the Evening Standard a few weeks ago.
Does anyone know whereabouts in London you can have one? I don't really want to spend £200, as we certainly don't have it, but I wasn't totally happy with my NHS scans and my blood test came back high risk down's syndrome. I didn't want an amnio as I would keep any baby, whatever but part of me feels I'm not really focusing much on this little baby. I don't know, could be that it's number 3 and I don't have much time to think about it. Can anyone help please?

I may be mistaken but when I saw the news regarding the 3d type scan, I am sure the broadcaster mentioned it was at great ormond street. Maybe I am wrong though. Might be worth while going into the bbc news or the likes website and looking for back news items.

Just out of curiosity I went into eveningstandard.co.uk webiste and found the article you mentioned. Under search I just put in "scans" and the article came up called "my unborn baby's on video" by Catherine Bassindale dated 6/7/2001..... and yes it is in Great Ormond Street and seemingly one at Guys. Good Luck.

I think this scan should be made available to all that may be at risk, not everybody wants an amnio. Hopefully, there will soon be more available at different hospitals.

Qd - did you have any luck regarding a further scan. I too had news about 3 weeks ago saying that I was high risk 1/172 of having a Downs baby and having miscarried at the beginning of the year there is no way I was going for the amnio. Seeing it all moving on the screen and sucking its thumb and feeling it move inside makes me think it deserves a chance to live whatever it is born like. The last 3 weeks I have done nothing but think about whether I am doing the right thing or not and god knows how I am going to get through the next 18 weeks. I am thinking of booking up to have one of these 30 - 32 week scans done at the Create Health Clinic in London at least I will know one way or another. How are you coping? What was your high risk rating?

Mima, did you have a nuchal scan at 11 weeks? did that pick up your high risk of Downs, or was it not until the 20 weeks scan? It seems so late at 20 weeks to tell you about Downs. If a mother couldn't cope with such a child, its just so far gone to have to abort it. It must be so difficult. Mima would your view have been different if you had known earlier?

Dear Mima
Your risk assessment is only an assessment and it does mean that 171 out of the 172 will not have Downs. I wish you well with the rest of your pregnancy.

I live in Edinburgh and the hospitals here do not offer a nuchal fold scan. Scottish hospitals only offer one scan and that is the booking in scan at around 13 weeks. All I had was the 13/14 week booking in scan at the hospital. It was at my 19 week triple blood test that the result came back I was high risk for Downs. After deciding not to go through with an amnio they did do a full thorough scan and could not find any of the classic symptoms of Downs ie, smaller head, smaller limbs, thick neck or just lying sluggish in the womb and not moving much. So I have to go with my instincts and hope it will be okay. Saying that though I am now 23 weeks and have not had too much movement just the odd flutter here and there so I have convinced myself it has Downs! Emotionally I could not have aborted the baby anyway even if I had found out earlier. I miscarried in January, I believe it was not right so it chose to leave, this one is still here and is alive so it deserves a chance whatever it is, and seeing it on the scan sucking its thumb and moving about, I just could not contemplate an amnio with the risk of miscarrying.

Getting the amnio at 19 weeks would have meant that my result would not have been back at the hospital until I was around 24 weeks, and if I had chosen to get rid of it then I would have to have had an injection to kill it and then be induced and give birth to a dead baby then registering it and burying it. I am going to take what I am given, good thing is that it's heart is completely formed with all the blood pumping where it should so in the event if it is Downs it may not be quite so badly affected.

I have booked up to come to London for a 32 week scan at the Create Private Health Clinic in London. THe consultant there very helpful and they said by looking at the scan will be able to tell me one way or another. Least I would know one way or another and either relax my last 8 weeks of pregnancy or panic!

Seeing all the recent reports about the triple test not being very accurate anyway makes me think why we have them done in the first place.

I quite agree with your view about the triple test - there are false positives and false negatives associated with it. The problem with all ante-natal tests is that we then have to make choices. It is great if we get the result we want (although not guaranteed) and not so great when we get a different result. Please remember Downs is very rare and most children are born perfect! Pregnancy in general is a very worrying time and I don't think we realise how much we do worry (even though we try not to) until we feel the relief of seeing our new-borns. Again good luck and please post again with any further news.

Mima - not true to say Scottish hospitals only do one scan. I live near Aberdeen and here you get 2 scans, one at 12 weeks and one at 20 weeks. They will also do extra ones if necessary. I had an extra one at 36 weeks as there was concern about the size of the baby.

Good luck with your baby.

The policy of our hospital is not to give nuchal scans unless they are specifically requested. I wasn't aware of this at the time and neded up paying £200 to have one done privately.

Hospitals here only offer a scan at 20 weeks unless you are desparately unsure of your dates. I felt this was far too late and paid £110 for a nuchal scan at Kings in London. I found it reassuring just to know that the baby was developing ok, to be given a good Downs risk was a bonus. I had an amnio during my first pregnancy and although I was convinced it was the right thing for me at the time their was no way I could do that again.
Mima I hope everyting is ok for you. If it is any comfort I didnt feel a thing with ds until around 21 weeks and then only the odd flutter until he was around 25 weeks.

I'm just adding to those expectant mothers that have come up as high risk for down's. I had a nuchal fold scan at 12 weeks in Bangkok, Thailand and was given the 'okay'. However, once I got back to the Uk (in time for the 20 week scan -) I was told that they had measured in the wrong place and the scan was deemed void (12 wk scan). The 20 week scan showed none of the soft markers associated with Down's, however I did have a blood test that showed up as high risk (age risk 1: 145, combined risk 1:150) - saw a consultant who said that my risk was basically an age related risk. Too late to have an amnio (didn't want one at such a late date) - I try not to think about it all but it is always at the back of my mind about the baby's health. Seems to me that in different areas you get different kinds of care - my friend had a scan at 16 weeks, also at 18 weeks (to check further for soft markers for downs) and will have another one at 20 weeks. I am very confused about the blood tests - at what level is the risk for down's? I have the blood level results but no information on what is the level that you are considered at high risk of having a Down's baby. Also each book/consultant/midwife seems to mention different times that you should have the blood test. As you can see it is the blood test that has me worried as I knew about my age related risk anyway. I think there is so much confused information that you are given and I wish to God that I hadn't had that blood test. Am now 34 weeks pregnant and cannot wait to see my baby but just hope that all is okay.

I have always taken for granted that my DH can come to all scans, appointments and classes - hadn?t even dawned on me that this isn?t the case for all dads to be (stupid I know). W are self employed and work from home (me on a very casual "fill in" type basis) and the idea that we one of us wouldn?t be there is not even an issue - we are fortunate enough to work flexi time and make it up in the evening if necessary. I can?t believe that so many men are unable to be there and share such an important health appointment - it is very wrong and needs acting on immediately. IMHO any company not prepared to allow fathers to be attend at least the scan appointments is a company not worth working for.

If there is any kind of way in which to contribute to this lobbying, please let us know.