Dads and Ante-natal Scans

[Tom]

I wondered if I could tap into people's experiences of this one: We are lobbying the DTI to give expectant fathers the right to have time off work to attend ante-natal scans; the 12 week dating one, the 18 week abnormality scan and any subsequent ones (usually only done if an abnormality has been discovered).

We think that these scans are really important for expectant dads - while mum-to-be has been going through 12 weeks of physical changes, the scan is often the first time a dad-to-be really feels the "reality" of the pregnancy and impending parenthood. For me, it was an increadibly powerful experience that really drew me into the preparation for parenthood and supporting my wife. The 18 week scan was amazing, because the foetus looked so much more like a baby. They discovered a problem, and I'm glad I was around to support my wife, who was quite shaken by it. We had a few more to investigate the potential problem, and I'm very glad I was there - they were anxious times. I think we should get the right to have a couple fo hours off to attend these scans - what do others think?

What are other people's experiences - what impact did the scan have on dad-to-be?

Tom, I do agree with you on the flexibility front. Having worked 11 -12 hour days for the past 14 years it has never bothered me in the past. In the past few months however I have been getting increasingly disillusioned. I am currently contemplating a shift to a side of the business which would allow me to work 8.30 - 6 - utter bliss!. My earnings would be almost cut in half though and I have just received an email from my husband expressing his concerns at this - Aaaaaargh!!. My problem really is that at the mo, my husband has many of the benefits of a stay at home wife i.e. I am home an hour ahead of him and do all the shopping, cooking and cleaning and take responsibility for most of the childcare related stuff but I also contribute 50% of our household income. I feel I need a break!!

Tom! any one! can you tell me more about this right to time off to look after sick children? I know that working parents of babies born after the 15th December 1999 have the right to take 13 weeks of unpaid parental leave etc etc. but what about this right to take time off for the rest of us?

My son has a bad stomach bug, so his childminder can't take him - in fact she has succumbed to it herself, poor woman. I took a day off on Tuesday to look after my son and would like to be at home now to care for him. My husband is covering for me, however, because according personnel here, any time off I take for caring for sick children must be taken as holiday. They will not give me unpaid leave.

This is because being near the beginning of the year I have about 4 weeks holiday. If I start running out of holiday later on, they will use their discretion about letting me take unpaid leave. But I'm pretty sure if I come back to them in August, saying I have 1 week of paid holiday left, but I want to go abroad for a two-week holiday, so can I take unpaid leave? the answer will be 'no'.

I have already used up 3 days of holiday this year on family emergencies - hospital appointments for one son, another being sick. At this rate, I'll have none left!!!

Tigermoth - you have the right to take time off to make arrangements for your child - you can find the details on our website click here. The page also includes a link at the bottom to the DTI's page that explains the right in details.

Follow up - your personnel department clearly doesn't know the law! You CAN take unpaid leave in order to make arrangements for your child - they cannot refuse you as far as I can see.

Croppy - you feel like you need a break because you do! I read what you do and it makes me tired just sitting here. You need some serious downsizing workwise (I apolgise for the sloppy
americanism).

Tom, yes fathers do need the right to attend these appointments. As your conversation with Tigermoth shows some employers will take advantage of people if they can.

In fact Croppy I want to marry you, 50% of the earnings and all that work!

Ahhh Snowy - you are sweet!. I don't want to make myself out to be a martyr as my hubby really is pretty good about the house. He is a bit younger than me and is v keen to make a good impression at work which means he never works less than a 12 hour day. I have always been very career minded but I do think exposure to Mumsnet members has had an impact on my attitudes to work. I certainly want to continue working but maybe it would be nice to have a life in which everything didn't have to organised to military precision and where I didn't have to be away from home for 12 hours every day.... My problem is that if I leave my present job, I am walking away from share options which would pay off 75% of our mortgage but if I stay, its 3 more years of slog!.

Star,
I think it was a 50/50 choice between the older and the younger applicant. My husband prefered the younger and his partner the older. In the end her assumed 'circumstances' were a contributing factor in the decision. Personally I was horrified and had a good rant at the time. I don't condone what they did but I can understand it. The company is very small and struggling and the extra cost of having a pregnant woman on the staff would have made a huge difference. So they avoided the potential of this happening. Believe me I gave them a hard time about it. It just worries me that this will happen more if maternity benefits (male and female) improve. What's the answer? Should women of childbearing age (and men with partners of childbearing age) only apply for jobs with big companies?

It does work both ways though. I know of a friend who has deliberately moved job to a company with a superior maternity package as she's planning on having children in the near future.

Tom: I do agree. Incidently my husband's company 'do' this christmas was a curry one Friday evening (out of hours) so they're not exactly blowing the annual profit there!

Tom, thank you!!. Just checked the website and have printed out the 'evidence'to show the Human Resources manager. I just feel so angry. It's not as if I was unaware of the changes in legislation. I went on maternity leave August 1999 as it was coming in. On my return in January 2000 I asked in detail what my position was, and have consistently had discussions about my right to unpaid leave. I trusted my manager to know her stuff. I work for a large company with Investors in People and ISO 900 after their name, so they are meant to be aware of this sort of thing. All last year, I made so many childcare and holiday decisions based on the fact that I could not have unpaid leave. I was expressly told to first use up all the holiday entitlement I had built up during my maternity leave. The days I could have taken to care for my sick baby, or to attend to my older child's school appointments etc I can never have back!! I even cancelled a family holiday because I had used up all my holiday on family stuff. I am just so angry. I am waiting to see the human resources manager about this. Let you know how I get on.

Croppy,
Have you read the 'makes you think' posting? Made me think that I must be mad for doing this job and missing out on my kids. Maybe a cut in salary wouldn't be the end of the world. I keep putting off changing job/stopping working until this, that or the other is done and all the time my children are growing up and I'm missing it. Must be barmy.

Yup Hmonty - I think that's what has got me going. Just did some sums though and our present Nanny would have to go. Would be a great shame as our little one loves her dearly. Then again, it's rather pointless for me to to be permanently tired so she can enjoy my son!!

Croppy, if you were working more "normal" hours, your child (from your last post I'm assuming it's 1) would be able to go to a regular nursery. Then you're looking at more like 5K instead of 38K. Is this right?

Personally, I made a decision a while back that I'd rather be less stressed, have more time for family etc and earn much less (I could have pursued a business/management science course @ LSE - I changed to Anthropology). It's a decision I've NEVER regretted.

When I think about it now, if someone wanted me to work extra hours, thereby cutting into the time I have with my son, I'd have to put a price on that time - they would, in effect, have to pay me money to not be with my son. Trouble is, I can't put a monetary value on that - the time we have together is priceless.

A question to all - how much (per hour) would you value the time you have with your children? (i.e. how much would someone have to pay you to give it up?)

Croppy,
Based on the amount I pay (we're near Brighton) nursery wise you're looking at more like 12k (when you take into account the fact they you are paying this from your net salary). Still a considerable saving though. When your boy is old enough you'll also get nursery vouchers that'll offset this a little (unless like me you have a July baby!).

Personally I've already decided that once my contract is finished (3 months to go) they'll have to let me work part time if they want me back. Just have to persuade hubbie now! Maybe if I point out he won't have tired and moody wife from hell living with him during the week he'll go for the idea.

Problem is Tom, a nursery in the City of London is £1,100 per month per child. Assuming one child, that's £13,200 a year out of my post tax income so that's roughly around the first £19,000 - £20,000 in pre tax income I earn gone on childcare. Double it for 2 and it is completely ridiculous. A city nursery would be my only option.

I know that's not what you're trying to do but I won't be made to feel guilty for time away from my son as I am rolling around the floor with him at 6pm every night which I think is fairly average for working mums. It is just that I get up very early to be at my desk at 6.30 which cuts into my free time with my husband and necessitates a very structured approach to life. My problem is that I also have to support my widowed mother which currently costs me £600 a month so it's not just a question of cutting costs for me. I am determined that my husband won't have to shoulder any of this burden.

Have just reminded Human Resources manager's assistant that I need to talk to her. I first asked on Wednesday. She's so busy she can't see me till Monday afternoon. Just as well my husband isn't too busy to wipe my son's * in the meantime.

Croppy, Hmonty I too would like to cut my hours. I realise only too well what I am missing on the child front- even if they are perfectly happy in the care of others. For one horrible year I was working a six to seven day-week ( two jobs, one weekday job, one running my own small business for 20 or so hours at weekends), while my husband looked after our son. The reasons were purely economic (for various reasons we were broke!) I gave that up to have another baby. My main ambition is to support my husband in working more hours so I can work less. He's setting up his own business, so fingers crossed.

Tom I'm thinking about your question.

Tom, re how much per hour would you need to be paid in order to be away from your child. Isn't the answer to this simply the amount that it takes to fund the lifestyle you want for your family? By this I mean an appropriate family home, a provided for old-age for yourselves, enough to give your children a decent start in life and so on. Quality of life is a determining factor and while time with your children is key, I think most people want a balance that involves more than a passing nod to financial security and home comforts.

On the one hand, time with your children when very young is in short supply and should be maximised. On the other, once they reach their mid-teens a person could face the danger of having a void in their lives. Many women of our mothers' generation feel bitter that they spent their entire lives looking after others and in some cases, having no financial independence and not having had a chance to assert their identity as an individual rather than somebody's wife or mother.

Sure, don't forget where your ultimate priorities are but you also have a duty to yourself to fulfill your potential as an individual. For some that will be by way of being a parent but for others, it may be through other means and I don't see anything wrong in that. Just some rambling thoughts really....

Thanks Croppy - I think what we all have to do is weigh up these competing priorities. I realise many women from previous generations have found it soul destroying to be bound up at home with the kids, only to be left with nothing when they leave home. Similarly, many men from the same generation have found themselves restricted to the world of work for their fulfillment, only to find when their kids grow up that they have deep regrets about the depth of relationship they were able to have with their children. I guess it's swings and roundabouts - women need, and are going for, the fulfillment of work, and men are starting to look for more involvement with their children (most men want to be more involved with their children than their own father was with them).

I guess it's a case of not letting the pendulum swing too far either way - getting the right kind of balance - for both men and women. I'm not sure anyone can have it all - maximum career opportunity and maximum involvement with children - we need to make hard decisions about these things.

Looking at it from a 'personal development' angle - I see both my work and my relationship with my son as 'personal development'.

The only scan my husband didn't attend in 6 pregnancies, the baby had died. He has always regretted it.

Tom - How much would someone need to pay me? I don't know. I can't imagine ever leaving pre-school children with some-one else, however much I was offered. Once the children are all at school, I don't know. I guess then a price which would make holidays etc. more affordable might be tempting, but I'm not sure. The money would have to cover housework, gardening and cooking as well.

Tigermoth - I think you are perfectly entitled to leave a message with your HR people saying that you are taking emergency leave to look after your sick child. If they are not able to see you, that's their lookout, not yours. You are entitled to one or two days off (unpaid) to care for your child and/or make suitable arrangements. Under the law you are asked to give notice of this at the earliest opportunity. You don't have to ask permission - you just tell them and leave work. If they penalise you in any way you have the right to take them to an industrial tribunal.

Thanks for the info again, Tom. I'm still here at my desk. Older son has succumbed the the bug as well, so husband is looking after them both. Although it's tempting to just walk out, having talked to my husband, he is happy to be at home today. He's already cancelled his work commitments, today, anyway. Both sons are happy too.
I've told him that in future, I'll use my right to unpaid leave so we can make a more equal decision as to who looks after the children in a crisis. I will also ask HR if my entitlement to unpaid leave can be backdated regarding the holiday I have already been forced to take this year, even if it means a rather light wage at the end of this month!

Regarding how much you would have to pay me to work some extra hours and not see my children, I'd ask my 7 year old son to decide that, not me.

Croppy
you are a rock of common sense and balance
thanks

Yes, Cos, I agree. Three cheers for Croppy's well-put explanation of why the whole issue of work-life balance is not a straight choice of one or the other.

A thought about work-life "balance";

• isn't this phrase misleading - when is life ever "balanced"!! It gives a picture of something almost standing still - the reality is that there are times when our families really need us and other times when our jobs and professional development have to be the priority, so the way we have to organise and order life is always in some degree of flux. Things are always changing, so hardly ever "balanced", and trying to achieve "balance" is a bit of an unrealistic goal isn't it? Perhaps we should think more in terms of navigating the responsibilities we have, or sorting out and meeting priorities and responsibilities. This isn't just a quibble not just with words, but the way we think about these things.