Anyone not having scans?

[amitymama]

I've been reading more about scans and am not sure that I want to have both of the standard 12-week and 20-week ones. If I'm reading it right, the 12-week looks to see how many babies there are, that the placenta is in the right place and that's when they do the nuchal testing. That one seems more important to me. But what is the purpose of the 20-week scan other than to test for abnormalities? If I know I wouldn't abort even if there were something terribly wrong with the baby, is there really any point in having it done? I know most people jump at the chance to have as many scans as possible but I think they are kind of needless and studies have not concluded that they are completely harmless to the fetus.

Has anyone refused a scan? If so, why and how did your care provider react? Which scan(s) did you skip?

Cote, read the links stripey posted...

Doppler info from the Cochrane Review

Hi Snaf - thanks for enlightening me.

3andnomore - I just did. It seems to me that WHO says early pregnancy scanning would not be warranted in developing countries. If I had to guess, I would say this is because they would not have the necessary technology and means to perform detailed scans and carry out the necessary operations in case of developmental problems. None of which is the case for OP.

I just looked at my scan photos from 12 weeks and 20 weeks (doctor was kind enough to put them all on a USB key for us) - at 12 weeks, he looked at baby's skull formation, ribs, two halves of her brain, femur bone length, nose bone length, nuchal thickness & ribs.

At 20 week scan, he looked at head formation, spine, femur length, (and this was incredible to watch) four ventricles of the heart and how high-O2 blood and low-O2 blood travelled between them (one in red, the other in blue), umbilical cord and its two intertwining veins, with high-O2 and low-O2 blood in each.

These are only the snapshots he has taken, I do remember he looked at pretty much all organs and body parts.

These scans are important, not because if you see an abnormality you can abort, but because you can prepare for it - some can be corrected while still pregnant, and others immediately at birth.

Cote, for you and many others this is important, but for other people it isn't....it would be interesting to see statistics to see just how often early detection makes a difference, how accurate scans are, etc.

Also, it might be worth keeping in mind, that not all that long ago that x-rays were considered safe antenatally...

No offence but most of those links about scans being harmful are really pretty ancient in medical research terms - 6-8 years or more. I wouldn't have extra scans or buy a doppler like some people do but wouldn't let it put me off those considered important to test for abnormalities etc.

thanks all of you

3andnomore - re "Cote, for you and many others this is important, but for other people it isn't"

I am not talking about scans being important for mothers. I am saying that they are important for the babies. For the vast majority, they will be all OK. For some, they will point to problems that are best detected early and sometimes even solved when the baby is still in the womb.

This is not a feeling thing, imho.

I have had two 'viability' scans and will have the 20 week one. I think it's personal choice but I have a heart defect, my brother was born with one kidney and my mum has a spinal deformity. All things that can be cared for after birth these days - however if you know they are likely you are transferred to the hospital that can deal with them to have the baby.

The dating of pregnancy via ultrasound though is a total waste of time IME though - by my reckoning I was one day shy of 44 weeks when I had DD and by their measurements 39+6. Now I only had sex once and either that sperm lived for three and half weeks, or they screwed up the dates. So I wouldn't entertain any conversations about due dates and being 'overdue' based on a sonographers educated guess at when the baby was conceived!

3andnomore, you wrote: "I also would think, that usually, if sometthing turns out to be wrong after birth, they would be quickly able to asses the situation anyway and treat quick....it's not like they can see everything on a scan anyway...and for instance if Baby comes out and goes blue, oxygen will be given anyhow and a scan of heart and lungs would be able to be performed quickly and would give the same, if not better info about the status then a antenatal one...just an example..."

I am not sure you can use the word "usually". My dd had a heart condition, which was detected antenatally during scans. She had apgars of 10 at birth, not blue at all. She never showed any symptoms after birth. But because we knew she had a heart condition, she was scanned continuously from birth. It was only after 4 months that the doctors finally decided what was wrong with her heart.

By the time they operated at 4 months, her heart was already dangerously enlarged - this does not show up on scans. She was in early stage congestive heart failure. There are many many other far more serious types of heart condition that do not get detected until a long time after birth, by which time, there may be permanent damage.

Stressful as my pregnancy and closely monitored birth was, I would say the scans saved her life.

Corte, but for most Baby's scan's are also unecessary, aren't they, and it is hard to forget how important in some instances scans can be when people seem to be more interested in finding out the sex of the Baby or get a 3 or 4 D scan because they enjoy looking at their unborn child.
I do think, that if there are any reasons to may believe somehting isn't right, then of course scans are important, especially if some pre-disposition to any condition is there (obviously I completely agree with that, as that is the main reason I did have the scans I had, even though it isn't a life or death thing...I just felt it would be good if we could find out in advance if any of the Kids had a cleft lip/palate).

Blueshoes, I can see your case entirely, but , and this may well be just a very naive opinion, I think this is a rarity. But I do not know enough maybe...and obviously you have looked at this in much more depth then I have...

Cote not Corte

Cote not Corte

3andnomore, I did not particularly research the stats, but I do know more than most about congenital heart conditions.

When you wrote "I do think, that if there are any reasons to may believe somehting isn't right, then of course scans are important,", the fact is there are a lot of serious conditions that occur totally randomly. Not everything is heritable or there is a predisposition in the family. There is no instance of heart condition in my or dh's family, but dd had a serious one.

You may very well take the view that it is rare - you are probably right. But it is not just the odds that any parent-to-be should consider, it is also the severity of the condition should the odds work out against you. And there are conditions were it is absolutely vital to intervene from birth. If a baby were to have that and was denied life-saving intervention at birth because their parents refused scans, they would have to live by their decision for the rest of their lives.

While I appreciate everyone's concern, I don't like the implication by some that I'm being irresponsible by not assuming the worst about my baby's health 'just in case.' I know that for most people, worrying a lot and thinking of all the negative things that could happen are just part and parcel of parenthood, but I prefer to keep a more optimistic and natural approach to life, and that includes pregnancy. Now, I'm not saying that I don't appreciate technological advances or modern medicine because I do indeed appreciate them and use them as needed. I would never willfully refuse medical treatment for myself or my baby just because I'm stubborn or 'all natural'. If there was a problem presenting itself to me (heavy bleeding, lack of movement, odd positioning of the foetus, high blood pressure, etc..) I would have a scan without any hesitation.

However, I also believe that we have become such a medicalised society that we have lost touch with our bodies, our babies and our own intuition. We trust in medical advice without doing our own research and asking our own questions. Doctors and medical technicians are not infallible. They do not hold our lives in their hands -- we do. I'm trying to live by the school of thought that says we should each take personal responsibility for our decisions and not let others make them for us. All I'm looking to do is gather information and other women's stories so I can do just that.

I don't say this because I feel attacked on this thread but because it pricked my nerves that it's been said that I might not be 'allowed' a homebirth or that I should not show myself to be 'difficult' lest the very people charged with providing me and my baby with care turn on me out of spite. If someone has such a problem with their professional knowledge being gently questioned that they would exact some kind of personal revenge on me as a result, well...I don't want them as my care provider anyway.

Thank you again for all of the information and discussion, I have found it all extremely useful in my decision-making journey. I have not made up my mind yet but I will bring up my concerns with my doctor and/or midwife and expect those concerns to be taken seriously and not just brushed off with an NHS pamphlet entitled 'Why all women need scans so they don't endanger their babies lives' or some other such bullying nonsense. Unforunately, this has happened to me before when I have asked questions about things I'm supposed to just 'trust them' about and I no longer go into any medical situation without knowing my rights and all the choices.

Thanks again.

I had grade 4 placenta praevia in both my pregnancies with no bleeding whatsoever, not even spotting. Yes, it's rare but it does happen. If it hadn't been for the scans I would not have thought anything was wrong. AT 20wks they were both 'just' low-lying placentas; at 32 weeks I was admitted to hosp.

amity...you go girl

Hope you have good proffessionals caring for you..it makes all the difference.
With ys I had to fight so much , and had to put up with such stupid Doctors at times...it made em really angry. I always felt that it wasn't at all helpful. And any Doctor or Midwife trying the "but if you don't do this, then you can't have your HB"..really annoyed me, and I would always state to them, that indeed they have a right and of course duty to provide me with information, but that it was my body, my Baby, my pg and Birth and therefore that it would be my choice if I take advice or not...
Some profffessionals found that attitude difficult to deal with, but, tbh, that was their problem not mine!

Blueshoes...of course the parents have to live with whichever consequences an action or non-action has...but I think, that as long as you are well informed you have the right to make your own decisions without being judged as unreasonable and iresspinsible...

amitymama, I agree with a lot you are saying - I take a lot of risks that are arguable against medical advice eg I never sterilise. But you asked a question and I gave an answer as to the risks. I never used the word irresponsible. Your body, your baby, your decision.

3andnomore, "but I think, that as long as you are well informed you have the right to make your own decisions without being judged as unreasonable and iresspinsible...", I am only here to inform. Nothing more or less.

i work in healthcare and the proven advantages of scanning far outweigh the suspected (i might even say 'rumoured' as never heard of ultrasound possibly being harmful) disadvantages of scanning. it's for your good as well as baby's.
one major benefit for me was that it was so magical seeing a little heart beat at 12 wks, then the 20 wk scan blew us away, the detail was amazing. wish i could experience it again!

Message withdrawn

Not being funny trishpops..but " I work in Healthcare"...really doesn't mean anything, unless it's your specialty that you work with antenatal scanning, etc...
And tbh, the fact that you say you never heard of Ultrasound possibly being harmful leads me to believe that Ultrasound is not your specialty...!

Trolley...thing is that a lot of Health proffessionals, imo and ime can't be trusted and one has to rely on ones own research.

Oh dear, I am sorry if my comment bothered you - I was not making any judgement about your choice or your intentions, just advising that I think you will get more co-operation re: your homebirth if you have scans than if you don't. I think this is worth bearing in mind - it was my opinion, and not meant to worry you or make you feel guilty, or anything like that. I do believe it to be the case though.

amity - You asked "is there really any point in having it done?" and people answered, including myself, that the point is to possibly save your baby's life if there is a problem. Yes, this is rare. But if it happens, you will be happy you had the scans.

If your view of prenatal scans is so "we have lost touch with our bodies, our babies and our own intuition", which has nothing to do with "the point in having it done", why ask?

Nobody here is bullying you. You asked and we answered. It's your body, your baby, and your choice.

Have a good pregnancy.

I am very grateful for my 20 week scan, as it has shown problems with the placenta arteries, that I would never have known about otherwise. Its means my care has been tailored to suit me, and even if the worst doesnt happen, im glad i had the knowledge in case it did. My baby is going to be well looked after now, and will hopefully be fine.

Trolleydolly, we will just have to agree to disagree because I do not believe that medical professionals are always the most educated, knowledgeable and up-to-date on all the current research and studies. Some people go to medical school and then stop learning, IYKWIM. They feel that since they are now a doctor (or nurse, or tech, or midwife) that they don't have to keep reading, researching, studying and reaching out to people. If you think that not having a medical degree makes someone 'uninformed', even when they have the same access to these studies and research as doctors do, thanks to the internet, then you are underestimating many, many people. Again, it doesn't mean I mistrust the entire medical profession -- no such thing. But I refuse to lay down and submit to things because the administration department of some hospital decided to make a procedure 'routine' even when the benefits have not been proven to outweigh the risks or where no indication of a problem is present. It's not about wanting to be natural and it's not about wanting to be defiant, it's about making decisions for myself and being aware of other professional studies and opinions besides "this is what my doctor says is best" if that advice doesn't jive with what my body and intuition is telling me.

Cote -- I did ask for opinions on scans and I have taken them on board, as I have stated. I am looking for a wide variety of thoughts on the topic but some people seemed to just be regurgitating what their doctors told them because they trust them to be completely knowledgeable and up-to-date on everything involving their care, without ever having done any research themselves. A few people indicated that they thought I would be foolish to risky my baby's health or my chance at having a homebirth merely because I wanted some questions answered with facts, not anecdotes about the girl they knew whose baby died because she didn't have a scan and so-and-so's doctor told her they were best.

I get really tired of the defensiveness displayed by so many people (both regular folks and medical ones) when someone simply asks some questions and explores how a procedure such as sonograms came to be routine and WHY. Do the benefits outweigh the possible risks? What about the fact that for every scan that is correct, 2.5 give false positives and scare women witless (some even into aborting) when in fact there was nothing wrong with the baby? It's a very inexact science, scanning.

Anyway, I didn't mean to step on any toes or anger anyone. I'm new here and was looking for like-minded people who might be asking these same questions so we could gather information together. I am not judging anyone's choice to have a scan for their own babies, merely my own.