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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Ockendon review - the end of the cult of "natural" births?

143 replies

Frenchie8690 · 30/03/2022 10:47

Shocking findings from the report out today. Hopefully this will mark a sea change in how women are cared for during pregnancy
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/30/baby-deaths-inquiry-shrewsbury-nhs-trust-condemned-for-repeated-failures?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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RedWingBoots · 31/03/2022 18:37

@MsTSwift

Dd1 would have died as a newborn if Dh hadnt been there. We both had mild after affects and would wake up in the night screaming. This wore off and I and dd1 survived so I can’t complain.
Thing is - and this is not to make you feel guilty - other women without good birth partners would have had a poor outcome in a similar situation.

In my case my hospital antenatal team specifically told me and my DP to make sure we were listened to in the labour ward. So after I was ignored, as I was having too many contractions as I was induced, my DP made sure he wasn't.

Oh and this is in a maternity hospital labelled good....

ChiswickFlo · 31/03/2022 18:38

@Used2bMw

NC for this. I used to be a midwife, am still registered actually but working as a HV. I’ve read the full report & was horrified. Some of the examples are similar to what happened in the trust I worked for. When I worked there bullying was rife. Patient notes were regularly falsified, obstetricians were horrible & unapproachable & no one was ever held to account or investigated. Increasing midwife numbers is not going to happen. It’s just not, unless there is a culture change.
Yep My maternity notes with ds1 were total fiction
RedWingBoots · 31/03/2022 18:43

[quote Whatelsecouldibecalled]@LittleGwyneth LOL!!!! I did perineal massage religiously as was so worried about tearing. Had a 3rd degree tear. No forceps or anything. Baby was 7lb 4 so not even massive. What a waste of time![/quote]
The research I read on perineal massage was that it was a waste of bloody time.

The research I read on having a sweep was that don't bother as it is very unlikely to work.

All the research was from foreign sources. Though I wouldn't be able to dig them out now.

Lissiel0u · 31/03/2022 18:43

@ChiswickFlo, mine too. I remember going through them with a mw and getting really angry about the amount of lies in there

beattieedny · 31/03/2022 18:43

I am so, so upset for all these women and families who have suffered. Clearly its a wider problem, given stories on here, and anecdotally from my own family and friends. I was v lucky to have positive birth experiences all three times. This was in the early '00s. All midwife led, but doctors on hand so when ds1 emerged, not breathing and struggling, he was quickly and professionally treated. I only wish every woman had such a good treatment. God bless those poor little babies.

purplesequins · 31/03/2022 18:47

@Used2bMw

NC for this. I used to be a midwife, am still registered actually but working as a HV. I’ve read the full report & was horrified. Some of the examples are similar to what happened in the trust I worked for. When I worked there bullying was rife. Patient notes were regularly falsified, obstetricians were horrible & unapproachable & no one was ever held to account or investigated. Increasing midwife numbers is not going to happen. It’s just not, unless there is a culture change.
my maternity notes for one dc were 'lost' when I asked for a debrief. I believe they were hidden or destroyed.
RedWingBoots · 31/03/2022 18:50

@purplesequins destroyed. They can't risk anyone accidentally finding them.

inheritancetrack · 31/03/2022 19:03

Totally agree that emergency c sections are lumped in with ECS and that distorts the figures.

Also the myth (imo) that CTG usage doesn't improve outcomes for babies. Why? Because the number of negligence cases based on misinterpretation and misreading of CTGs are also lumped in with all the normal readings. If CTGs wer correctly interpreted then rates of infant harm would be reduced. The top two reasons for birth injury are not reading the CTG or acting on it, and delay for various reasons.

RedWingBoots · 31/03/2022 19:10

Totally agree that emergency c sections are lumped in with ECS and that distorts the figures.

The women I know with more than one child who had ECS had them because the first birth was an emergency c section. If the second and subsequent pregnancy is similar then it makes sense for the mother to have an ECS.

In other words the figures give an overview of c-section rates but ignore why women have emergency c-sections and ECS.

Elephantgrey · 31/03/2022 20:00

I am amazed there is not more about this on here. The report is so heartbreaking.

The thing about the NCT / hypnobirthing classes is that they teach you how that the NHS is too cautious and will push you towards interventions and how to resist. What is equally likely to happen is that you will have concerns that will not be taken seriously and you will not be given the intervention that you do need.

JazzyBBG · 31/03/2022 20:30

It's unbelievable that it went on so long. If it had been a bigger city would it have gone on so long? I also wonder how much was known in the wider profession about this trust and if it was common knowledge.

EarlGreywithLemon · 31/03/2022 21:43

@inheritancetrack I agree.

It’s anecdotal but I think the CTG saved my daughter and me. They spotted decelerations (fairly small ones) so took us to theatre. As I was being moved, the midwife spotted some blood. After DD was delivered I had a PPH. The registrar said she thought I’d been having a placental abruption. I discussed this at the debrief with the consultant, and it sounds like they were very vigilant and caught it early because of the decelerations. I’ll be forever grateful for that eagle eyed registrar and midwife, and for the CTG.

MsTSwift · 31/03/2022 23:30

I did put in an official complaint to try to prevent what happened ever happening to anyone else. I’d had 24 hours of labour then emergency c section. In post operative ward I said I was too tired to hold the baby but the midwife insisted and put her on me anyway I must have fallen asleep she had slipped down and was suffocating Dh saw and screamed and the crash team had to resuscitate her. So that was a nice introduction to motherhood.

sarah13xx · 01/04/2022 01:03

So so glad this has all come to light. So sad for all those affected by it and heartbreaking that it has actually take THIS for hospitals to sit up and take notice. I’ve been banging on on here for the last year about c-sections and women’s rights to choose how they want to give birth. I did hours upon hours of research into a c-section for about 10 years before even considering getting pregnant. Giving birth naturally vaginally has been my biggest fear on earth since I was a child bizarrely and for no real reason other than an accumulation of all the awful stories I’ve heard throughout my life. I almost didn’t get pregnant in case I couldn’t get a c-section approved but after doing a lot of reason, especially on birth rights I went for it. Physically I had the easiest 39 weeks and 4 days ever. Mentally, it was torture. I spent the entire time in a heightened state of anxiety, the only way I can describe it is feeling the way I imagine it feels to walk along one of those tiny narrow ridges high up a mountain. At any second I felt like I was going to go plunging off the side into labour and to my death (dramatic I know but entirely true for many of these women it seems). I had to really fight with the midwives/gatekeepers to even be allowed to speak to the consultant but it had gone on for 20 something weeks and by this point I’d worked myself up into a frenzy and was physically shaking asking/telling the midwife to get me a phone call with someone ASAP. This was the first time anyone took me seriously but I’m so sad it actually did have to come to that. The consultant wasn’t quite so against a c-section but she did want to tell me completely skewed risks about them. She even told me I might die since that was the main fear I had (thanks for that)! Luckily I’d done enough research by this point I could probably have performed the c-section on myself so I just agreed with whatever ridiculous risks she read out in order to speed the appointment up and get my section booked. She didn’t tell me one single risk of a vaginal birth and just said I could have a nice easy time OR I could have all these horrendous things happen to me as I bleed to death on the table while having a c-section.

Funnily enough I didn’t bleed to death. Bizarrely I didn’t experience one single negative effect from having the section. It was the best day of my life! So lovely, so controlled, so calm, everything I had hoped for. Everything I’d worried about all of my life didn’t happen 😊 I don’t wet myself on a daily basis or need to go for surgery to repair ‘down there’ like someone at my work. I didn’t bleed so much I had to be rushed to theatre and almost have my womb removed, like my friend who gave birth vaginally and has been promised a section next time. I didn’t spend the next day traumatized and shaking in bed, unable to bond with my baby like another friend who gave birth vaginally. A friend of a friend was sent home in labour and now spends her days looking after her child with brain damage, who might only live a few years 😔 These stories aren’t random one offs, I think I know about one person who has actually had a decent experience giving birth vaginally. Every single one of my friends has had one of these horrifying stories to tell, yet when I tried to get that message across to healthcare professionals while I was pregnant I was patronised, almost laughed at and made to feel so silly for feeling that way. I am so glad change will now hopefully be brought about in so many hospitals where c-sections are avoided at all costs!

Bramblecrumble21 · 01/04/2022 11:22

I am going to follow up that my NCT group was fine, a little expensive for what it was. But the teacher talked about our plans, and areas we wanted to focus on as a group. We focused on different pain relief options and induction of labour, how the process works and about how to make an informed choice about delaying it. Maybe that's where it was dubious but overall, good information.

RedWingBoots · 01/04/2022 11:30

@JazzyBBG

It's unbelievable that it went on so long. If it had been a bigger city would it have gone on so long? I also wonder how much was known in the wider profession about this trust and if it was common knowledge.
Yes.

Bigger cities have more ethnically diverse populations. Look at the figures for issues in child birth for women who are ethnic minorities. In addition there are (white) posters who have mentioned on previous threads about child birth who have stated they have heard racist comments from staff.

Bramblecrumble21 · 01/04/2022 11:40

That's horrible. I panicked something similar would happen to me. After a 30 hour labour and still numb from anasthetic. I was moved to a postnatal bed in a labour room. Baby was given to me an I breastfed her, staff all left the room to do what seemed like hours of handover. She fell asleep almost immediately. DH fell asleep on the edge of my bed and I felt myself drifting off, managed to move enough to kick DH awake so he moved baby to the cot. Could have been much worse.

Bramblecrumble21 · 01/04/2022 11:40

@MsTSwift not the trust in the review

teezletangler · 02/04/2022 17:37

If you actually read the report - which i don't think a single journalist has actually done - a cult of "natural birth" was not one of the issues at this trust. There was certainly a culture of vaginal birth even where inappropriate, but not natural birth, which is something very different (birth without drugs).

The main issues seem to have been understaffing, bullying, poor management and toxic relationships between professions and between different areas of the maternity service, all of which contributed to poor outcomes.

The media seem to have run with "natural birth" because it makes a good headline.

DSGR · 02/04/2022 18:58

@teezletangler

If you actually read the report - which i don't think a single journalist has actually done - a cult of "natural birth" was not one of the issues at this trust. There was certainly a culture of vaginal birth even where inappropriate, but not natural birth, which is something very different (birth without drugs).

The main issues seem to have been understaffing, bullying, poor management and toxic relationships between professions and between different areas of the maternity service, all of which contributed to poor outcomes.

The media seem to have run with "natural birth" because it makes a good headline.

Come on. The report says staff were overconfident in dealing with complex pregnancies, there was a division between midwives and consultants and midwives often didn’t ask for help, that many women requested a Caesarean as they were worried and they were persuaded to go for vaginal birth ( as your prefer to call it when really it’s not much different), with tragic consequences. Very senior staff are also on record as being very proud of the low Caesarean rate (they appeared before MPs) even though the actual death rate babies was obviously higher. Many people - journalists and public alike - have read the full report.
DSGR · 02/04/2022 19:02

Did you read the report in The Times? They couldn’t have had that level of detail without reading the report

LBFseBrom · 02/04/2022 19:06

Don't people tear or have an epidural even when they have anaesthetic? Most people I know did, at least a small one.

I never knew there was a 'cult of natural childbirth, I just thought it was - well - natural :-). I had an easy natural birth but I do realise I was fortunate when I hear of what a difficult time some people have: inductions, forceps, emergency Caesarians, etc. The very thought of any of those makes me shudder. I suppose I would have coped but am very glad I didn't have to. People really should have what they want.

Water births are apparently really nice. I was speaking to someone two or three weeks ago whose wife had a water birth and they both highly recommend it.

ZoyaTheDestroyer · 02/04/2022 19:42

@LBFseBrom

Don't people tear or have an epidural even when they have anaesthetic? Most people I know did, at least a small one.

I never knew there was a 'cult of natural childbirth, I just thought it was - well - natural :-). I had an easy natural birth but I do realise I was fortunate when I hear of what a difficult time some people have: inductions, forceps, emergency Caesarians, etc. The very thought of any of those makes me shudder. I suppose I would have coped but am very glad I didn't have to. People really should have what they want.

Water births are apparently really nice. I was speaking to someone two or three weeks ago whose wife had a water birth and they both highly recommend it.

Just stop using ‘natural’.

The birthing pool stopped my contractions dead despite the fact that I was 9cm dilated. It’s apparently reasonably common but no-one talks about it. Sort of like a cult.

mathanxiety · 02/04/2022 19:46

I suspect some of this would have been avoided if a robust litigation culture existed in the UK.

I have been on threads here where women have poured scorn on American CS rates, as if that's a bad thing in and of itself. Yes, there certainly is a cult of natural childbirth alive and kicking in the UK. Cult-like belief is the only possible reason for the complete lack of reason and rationality in discussions involving CS and the refusal to see anything positive in the way things are done elsewhere.

*Yes, I know there are massive problems in American healthcare. But midwives in the US are fully qualified Registered Nurses with university degrees in nursing which include years of practicum training, and a few years of masters level specialisation in midwifery after that.

ZoyaTheDestroyer · 02/04/2022 19:58

@mathanxiety

I suspect some of this would have been avoided if a robust litigation culture existed in the UK.

I have been on threads here where women have poured scorn on American CS rates, as if that's a bad thing in and of itself. Yes, there certainly is a cult of natural childbirth alive and kicking in the UK. Cult-like belief is the only possible reason for the complete lack of reason and rationality in discussions involving CS and the refusal to see anything positive in the way things are done elsewhere.

*Yes, I know there are massive problems in American healthcare. But midwives in the US are fully qualified Registered Nurses with university degrees in nursing which include years of practicum training, and a few years of masters level specialisation in midwifery after that.

Certified Nurse Midwives are, yes, but a Certified Midwife does not have to be an RN or even a graduate. Do you think this is different to the UK? Midwifery is a graduate profession here.