Contaminated kitchen - how to stop worrying?

[BertiesMangos]

Hi all,

An unfortunate series of misunderstandings means that yesterday I chopped and ate a salad using knife/ chopping board/ utensils that my husband had used for raw fish - the main misunderstanding being that I thought his nods were signalling that he had got the equipment out, clean, for me to use, whereas in fact he was telling me that yes, they needed cleaning. We ate the salad with the cooked fish on top - so no, I didn't notice anything tasting unusually fishy.

I'm aware I can't undo this, and that in future we both need to slow down and not rush food prep in order to make sure nothing like this happens again.

But - that doesn't stop the immense worry. I haven't slept and I'm doing everything in my power to avoid dr google, but I'm absolutely petrified about the potential listeria implications in particular. Earlier in pregnancy I did do a lot of googling and I'd read an estimated 25% of raw salmon is infected with it so I'm finding it so hard to stop thinking. And this isn't a 'normal' event that happens to people (it's more idiocy on our parts...) so my attempts to reassure myself about listeria infections being rare aren't getting anywhere, because the stats are reliant on people having a basic level of food hygeine that slipped us by yesterday.

I don't think I've ever felt as down and helpless as I do right now. I can't get out of bed. I can't shake the feeling that I'm going to develop it, and going to pass it on to baby, and therefore that there is no point in getting my hopes up about the rest of this pregnancy.

I'm reaching out to anyone who might have had similar worries - how did you deal with them? How did you let go and enjoy your pregnancy?

Was it farmed salmon? Unlikely to be infected with listeria or anything else. You can even eat sushi in pregnancy which is uncooked.

Next time tell him to either prepare the salad first or put the chopping board and knife straight into the sink/dishwasher if its been used for raw meat/fish rather than leaving it out

@dementedpixie

Was it farmed salmon? Unlikely to be infected with listeria or anything else. You can even eat sushi in pregnancy which is uncooked.

Next time tell him to either prepare the salad first or put the chopping board and knife straight into the sink/dishwasher if its been used for raw meat/fish rather than leaving it out

Thanks so much for replying - means a great deal right now!

I don't know how I know what is/ isn't farmed, but I believe they were these, which say "responsibly sourced": www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-2-scottish-salmon-fillets/046207-22751-22752

I thought being able to eat sushi relied on eating it at establishments where it's a high enough quality of fish - i.e. not extending to people making it themselves at home with waitrose salmon, but would obviously be pleased if I'm wrong about that.

OP, you have to stop beating yourself up about this. You’re a human being - you haven’t become infallible through being pregnant. Do you think that your husband is lying awake at night worrying about the harm he may have caused his unborn child through this incident? I guarantee he is not, because 1. The risks are tiny, and 2. He has not been conditioned to feel the immense guilt and responsibility that pregnant women do during pregnancy.

You are very unlikely to suffer ill effects from trace amounts of raw fish (fish overwhelmingly likely not to be infected with listeria) on a chopping board making its way into your salad. I actually think you’re wrong about the stats assuming basic food hygiene - I think you would be amazed at how bad a lot of people’s food hygiene is, and how much it varies around the world. And yet babies go on being born.

Regardless, please try not to berate yourself. You are already a loving and conscientious mother, clearly! Nothing about this - truly very minor - incident is your fault. Honest mistakes happen and you can’t always prevent them and will drive yourself absolutely berserk if you convince yourself otherwise. Please don’t worry and force yourself to just put it from your mind.

Honestly, I think if you are struggling with this to the point that you can't get out of bed, you may need to seek out some help with your mental health. We all understand being a bit anxious in pregnancy, but I think you may have gone beyond that.

Your reaction to this teeny event is way out of proportion. Do you realise it or not? Or do you genuinely think you’re right?

Right, this is a disproportionate response and you may be suffering from prenatal anxiety. I did and it ruined my first pregnancy. In fact it wasn’t until my fourth baby I truly realised that you can enjoy it! You can’t go on like this, your baby will be fine. You can’t worry so much it’s not healthy and looking at stats in the internet is helping the anxiety not you! Concentrate on poking after yourself not the worry, don’t feed it and try to distance and note the feeling: oh there I am worrying about the fish again, I will now that my brain has done that then focus on looking after myself x

The salmon you had was most likely farmed and with a much lower chance of listeria than the salad you chopped up
Please stop worrying, you are going to be fine . But please seek help for your anxiety as that is really more of a problem to you than your food hygiene

OP, I don’t rush to pathologise but your level of anxiety does, to me, sound unusually high. Worrying in pregnancy is normal but feeling helpless and despairing and not being able to get out of bed sounds like anxiety. The advice is overwhelming cautious and the odds of any issues are minuscule. Might be worth a little chat with your GP to see if you’re developing some prenatal anxiety.

Looking not poking!

X post with everyone else!

I don't think I've ever felt as down and helpless as I do right now. I can't get out of bed.

You are going to make lots of mistakes as a parent (because we all do) so if this level of anxiety is not normal for you (or even if it is) I would strongly recommend speaking to someone about it. There will be infinite near misses that you need to be able to rationalise and cope with without it beating yourself up.

@BertiesMangos I totally understand why you're so worried - I was the same during pregnancy; we fought so hard and for so long for a baby and I was terrified of losing it.

The chances of your worst case scenario happening are very, very small. I think it would be a good idea to speak to your midwife for some reassurance; hopefully a medical professional will be able to put your mind at rest

Thanks all - and yes I'm reaching out because I don't know how to stop thinking about it. I haven't been googling, which I think is a positive step, but I'm afraid I did earlier in pregnancy and haven't forgotten what I found - e.g. that 'trace' amounts of listeria are enough to cause infection.

I haven't felt like this about other things really - it's the potentially symptomless / delayed nature of listeria that makes it so frightening. And, that a colleague's sister lost a baby due to it. Earlier in pregnancy I looked for support with anxiety but at the time I didn't find anything helpful - my midwife told me that I 'seemed fine' and that it would take time to refer me, so she didn't. I tried a couple of charities, who also seemed inundated and like they didn't consider me to be a priority.

From a risk point of view, as pps have said, it’s extremely small. Most fish in the UK has been frozen even if it’s marketed as fresh, so very safe to eat even when raw.

From a reaction point of view, I do understand the anxiety - I’m 18 weeks and currently waiting on a blood test to find out if I caught slapped cheek from my DC, which can cause serious problems. As much as the worry is there, you can’t let it take over everything. Parenting sometimes feels like just a series of endless worries and can get all consuming of you’re not careful. Maybe speak to your midwife for advice? There are lots of resources for managing anxiety online too eg mindfulness apps, positive affirmations, journaling etc.

@bertiesMangos I'm very much like you and tend to worry and over analyse things. And I think it is natural when we are pregnant and especially as we are told to be careful with certain foods.
I'm a scientist and by no means by anyway expert in this type of thing, but did do a student placement at a fish disease laboratory many years ago. Its focus was ensuring food is safety, and I was so impressed with the standards - we are lucky to have here. I also got to visit a fish farm and they use the highest quality spring water etc. So I think waitrose bought salmon, which will be farmed will be of the highest quality and so extremely unlikely to be infected in any way. So please try not to worry. I think it is right to be careful with food, as very very occasionally there is an issue, so the guidelines for pregnant women are there to reduce risk of exposure.

All the best with your pregnancy going forward.

@Aozora13

From a risk point of view, as pps have said, it’s extremely small. Most fish in the UK has been frozen even if it’s marketed as fresh, so very safe to eat even when raw.

From a reaction point of view, I do understand the anxiety - I’m 18 weeks and currently waiting on a blood test to find out if I caught slapped cheek from my DC, which can cause serious problems. As much as the worry is there, you can’t let it take over everything. Parenting sometimes feels like just a series of endless worries and can get all consuming of you’re not careful. Maybe speak to your midwife for advice? There are lots of resources for managing anxiety online too eg mindfulness apps, positive affirmations, journaling etc.

I will try my midwife again - but previously all she did was pointed me to the nhs website list of charities, which I went through at the time. I think I will feel better getting the "I ate something that could possibly - though unlikely - contain listeria" on her radar, in any case. And I know I shouldn't make this comment as I need to stop thinking about it but - I don't know why people keep repeating this myth about frozen fish being listeria-safe. Again my earlier googling taught me that freezing really doesn't kill listeria.

Pregnancy does feel all-consuming for me, maybe due to COVID. We have no family nearby and only a handful of friends; pre-COVID and pregnancy I played a lot of sport which I obviously now can't do; work is busy and stressful (and not office-based, which was a blessing when it came to morning sickness, but now means I feel like I have no social outlet); we can't distract ourselves by going on holiday or to restaurants; and anytime any family or friends speak to me, all they want to talk about is my pregnancy. I would like it to feel like there is more to my life than this, as I wasn't an anxious person pre-pregnancy and I think my overall 'balance' in life was probably why. I regret not having made more friends locally, and I regret not having thought harder about the potential mental health implications of getting pregnant in a pandemic.

I do hope everything turns out okay for you Aozora.

Did you wash the salad after chopping?

If yes it'll be fine. If no then there's more risk of listeria on unwashed veg anyway.

My brother is a GP. He says it is so under the scale for you to pick anything up. Your natural acids in your stomach will deal with it, and the stress you are feeling is far more damaging. So basically chill the hell out!

@Katy4321 , thank you, that's really encouraging to hear!

@Daseychain - no, as I washed them before chopping them (tomatoes, peppers, not bagged salad/ lettuce etc), but it may make me consider a double wash in future!

Thanks @thebestnamehere, though at present still unsure how to chill out or forget it! I'm hoping that if the worst case scenario is trace amounts, then he's right that that's small enough for my stomach acid to deal with it - but I know my immune system isn't the greatest at the moment!

Ok well will let you take up the relative safety of fish with public health England. But please do try to stop fixating on the listeria thing, it’s not doing you any favours. And perhaps get separate chopping boards for raw meat, fish and vegetables, and wash your salad if you’re worried about food safety.

Having a baby will naturally change the focus of your life, especially in the intensive baby stage. So now is the time to start building positive coping mechanisms. You can go out now, meet people outside at least and can still do exercise indoors and outdoors even if you can’t play your sport. You can steer conversations away from baby chat by changing the subject and asking questions, and Facebook is full of local mum groups where you can start making new connections and find out what’s on in your local area.

Focus on what you can do and the things within your power to change, rather than what you can’t do and can’t change. And step away from bloody google if it’s stopping you from making appropriate risk assessments.

@Aozora13

Ok well will let you take up the relative safety of fish with public health England. But please do try to stop fixating on the listeria thing, it’s not doing you any favours. And perhaps get separate chopping boards for raw meat, fish and vegetables, and wash your salad if you’re worried about food safety.

Having a baby will naturally change the focus of your life, especially in the intensive baby stage. So now is the time to start building positive coping mechanisms. You can go out now, meet people outside at least and can still do exercise indoors and outdoors even if you can’t play your sport. You can steer conversations away from baby chat by changing the subject and asking questions, and Facebook is full of local mum groups where you can start making new connections and find out what’s on in your local area.

Focus on what you can do and the things within your power to change, rather than what you can’t do and can’t change. And step away from bloody google if it’s stopping you from making appropriate risk assessments.

Thanks. I do wash my salads/ veg, just not both before and after chopping - I didn't know that was bad practice. Problem is I don't know how to do any of those things you suggest. I don't have anyone to meet up with locally. Anyone I know locally hasn't been vaccinated and isn't ready to meet up yet. And they probably won't be until after my due date (I'm 31 weeks). And I'm not moving/ feeling well enough to be able to do more than a short daily walk at the moment. Noone else has anything to talk about because noone has been anywhere, so conversations get back round to baby chat almost immediately. Our parents are too excited and I'm finding it horrible. And I'm nervous about making new baby-related connections both in case things aren't okay (no, I still can't shake the thought about listeria), and because I don't want everything in my life right now to feel like it's pregnancy-related. Sitting in the garden with a book is about all I can think of to distract me at the moment, but that still feels isolating. These are clearly going to be the longest few weeks of my life.

Can you take up a simple craft e.g. knitting, crochet? Do a jigsaw puzzle? Those can gently occupy your brain and your hands and give you something productive to do.

You sound really like you may be depressed OP, and not about the fish. Have you spoken to your husband about feeling lonely and like everything is consumed by the pregnancy?

To be honest, at 31 weeks pregnant probably everything will be consumed by the pregnancy, but that doesn’t mean the rest of your life will be. When friends and family try to talk to you about it have you tried being honest with them, and saying that covid and feeling isolated means you find it hard to enjoy it? If you are feeling that you have to pretend to mirror their excitement maybe that makes you feel worse.

You can meet unvaccinated people outdoors and there’s no reason why you and your husband can’t go away for a break or to a restaurant. The only way you will relax a little is by giving yourself permission to and then seeing that nothing bad happens.

@BertiesMangos

I completely understand this as I have been feeling v similar during my pregnancy - had a lot of worries about undercooked meat. As well as other bacteria etc!!

I think one thing you need to remember is the likelihood of you getting listeria is v low if you have just used the same chopping board.

A few things that have helped me during this time is:

• Stop googling - honestly can go down such a rabbithole and basically everything is a hazard!!
• In other countries, e.g. Japan, they eat raw fish all the time and in fact they have no guidelines for pregnant women around avoiding raw fish!
• DH reassures me a lot by reminding me that women have babies in developing countries all the time where guidelines around hygiene and sanitisation may be very different and they have babies that are fine!

You should call the community midwife team or your GP, and read out these words from your post:

I don't think I've ever felt as down and helpless as I do right now. I can't get out of bed. I can't shake the feeling that I'm going to develop it, and going to pass it on to baby, and therefore that there is no point in getting my hopes up about the rest of this pregnancy.

If that isn't a massive perinatal mental health red flag, I don't know what is. Yes, it's hard being pregnant and having a baby in a pandemic. But that reaction is not within the realms of "normal pregnancy nerves".

Unfortunately in the UK you often have to advocate for yourself in order to get mental health treatment - just at the very time when you're feeling least able to cope with that sort of task! In the meantime, I recommend ringing an anonymous phone line. Try the Samaritans or have a Google for a pregnancy specific one. You can talk to them from your bed, right now! The Samaritans are for all kinds of problems, not just suicide, and you'll be able to talk through your fears with a kind listening ear.