Could I have given her listeria?

[RunnerBeanz]

New to mumsnet and have no kids so apologies if this is the wrong place to post but, I had a pregnant friend over to my garden for lunch today, and I served her halloumi and avocado on toast.

She is adamant that I have given her listeria, because the avocado had black/ brown spots and lines in it (she found out because my husband came out to join us and cut his avocado outside, and it was also like this). We've always still eaten our avocadoes like this and just cut off anything really brown - we just assumed they were 'over-ripe' / 'bruised', equivalent to bananas, as we thought they still tasted okay. But apparently this is a sign of rot/ mould and means that the avocado is much more likely to be infected by listeria?

She'd already eaten her lunch but immediately drove off home and has sent me a number of angry messages since, that I've found really upsetting. She's since been crying to one of our other friends. Obviously I didn't intend to cause her any harm and would feel terrible if I really have increased hers and baby's risk.

Is she being hormonal or is there actually a risk here? I've googled and not really found anything (apart from listeria sometimes being present on the skin - but I washed it first!) so I'm turning to those of you who are also pregnant to help me out!

I’m pregnant and think she is fucking bonkers. From what I’ve read, listeriosis lives on the skin of the avocado so as long as you washed it, the risk is microscopic surely?

If she is so precious about what she eats she needs to not eat anything prepared by other people frankly. She needs to give her head a wobble. I can see how she is going to be when the baby comes.... except more of this behaviour

Some of these comments are pretty nasty saying she's nuts she's bonkers a hypochondriac don't be her friend etc bit of kindness would be nice. She's obviously upset and when you get that real worry you can seem a bit over the top. Pregnancy can really change you with hormones etc.

She'd already eaten her lunch but immediately drove off home and has sent me a number of angry messages since, that I've found really upsetting. She's since been crying to one of our other friends. Obviously I didn't intend to cause her any harm and would feel terrible if I really have increased hers and baby's risk.

@Nikki360 i would say that is more than 'a bit over the top'

Contrary to popular belief pregnancy is not an illness and is not a free ticket to treat people however you like.

No I understand it's not an illness but it can definitely trigger or make existing conditions worse. She shouldn't have been rude but when you are that anxious you don't mean it.

@Nikki360 if she is really THAT anxious she wouldn't be scoffing food at other peoples houses, honestly some things I read on hear my mind boggles at how women get through labour when they have such reactions to the trivial things that come before it!

How bizarre. I think I'm probably a bit OTT about food precautions during pregnancy and I wouldn't think twice about eating an overripe avocado. I've never even heard or read anything about needing to take precaution around avocados in pregnancy. I don't even wash the skin -- although it does make sense and I guess I will start to now! I don't know where she's even got the idea from that this could be dangerous. You went above and beyond IMO to accommodate her by even thinking to check the halloumi and wash the avocado.

@Nikki360

Some of these comments are pretty nasty saying she's nuts she's bonkers a hypochondriac don't be her friend etc bit of kindness would be nice. She's obviously upset and when you get that real worry you can seem a bit over the top. Pregnancy can really change you with hormones etc.

Health anxiety is never an excuse to be nasty to someone, so in that regard she sounds like a horrible person who HAPPENS to have hypochondria. I would drop the friendship after this because if she's already freaking out about a bit of avocado in pregnancy imagine how insufferable she'll be once the stressors of having a baby/child come into play.

As someone with an extensive history with emetophobia/food-related health anxiety. If I'm served food that I don't want to eat, there are thousands of different ways to politely get around it. From taking off the avocado and eating the remaining things with a silly excuse (eg pregnancy food aversion, or just being honest and saying I read someplace that avocados could be linked with listeria so hope you don't mind if I leave it). If anything, pregnancy was the best excuse of all times to be picky with food since nobody questions a pregnant woman for not eating things.

To repeat, feeling anxious or even being in a panic attack is NOT a trigger for writing rude text messages. Phobics might suddenly leave a party or disappear at an event because they can't handle the environment which is often seen as "rude" but writing nasty messages or bitching to other people about it afterwards is not a symptom.

@PastelFlowerJelly
^yes this.

Feeling anxious can cause you to lash out but that doesn't make it acceptable to treat people poorly. She seems to have very limited insight into how irrational her thinking has become and needs support to identify when her thoughts are not rational. Unfortunately it seems like she has such limited insight that she is unlikely to recognise that she even needs this support on her own. Maybe the third party friend who she has cried to could recommend she mention her anxiety and concern around food to her midwife (perhaps even citing the example of the avocado and the effect it had on her)? This is not typical.

Very over the top to think this and then to repeatedly text u angry messages, I’m suprised she didn’t call 999 and get herself taken to hospital in an ambulance and get you arrested for attempted murder. Don’t worry your friend will be fine and come back and apologise when she sees sense x

Well - a week later and she has apologised but she's not in a good place. She seems to have moved on from being concerned about the avocado being brown/ overripe, and now concerned about how I cut through both the flesh and skin in multiple places and transferral of listeria to the flesh (it was washed... but she can't seem to shake that it might not have been washed enough because I didn't use a scrubbing brush and I cut through the skin in multiple places not just to cut in half...citing statistics from the US where 20% of avodoes had listeria on the skin). 20% does seem quite high but I've tried to tell her that I can't find anything definitively stating avocado caused a listeria infection, and that she hasn't yet been ill...but she's adamant that it's very likely pregnant women wouldn't get symptoms and that the cause of an infection might never be identified to a particular food item (which if true I admit sounds terrifying!).

Anyway, rambling update aside - I know a lot of you advised that I should reconsider our friendship but I wouldnt't do that...I'm concerned and she clearly needs support. Are there pregnancy specific mental health charities or support groups I can try and suggest? I don't know if she's at the point of being able to take advice, but I'm worried about how much it's taking over her life! I've made her promise not to eat any more avocadoes in pregnancy if it's going to have this effect on her as a starting point, but from talking to her I'm also worried about her diet in general and the number of things she's stressing about, as it sounds like she's only eating chips, plain toast, and vegan chocolate!

I wouldn't worry about her current diet being limited particularly. Many women survive on a weird grab bag of bland food and junk food in pregnancy especially if they have HG and are completely fine. She's most likely taking a multivitamin anyway if she's that health-paranoid.

I would just encourage her to talk to her midwife about her mental health and tell her this level of obsession is not normal. But also make it clear that it is not OK to take her concerns out on you, because it's not.

And no, she is not right about the idea that she could have got listeriosis and not known.

Her diet being limited at this point, isn’t too much of a problem. She could be having some really bad food aversions. I’m currently eating like a child and most of my meals are beige. I’ve eaten a plate of plain spaghetti because it’s all I could face. I would love to eat more colours at the moment and DH is bored of chicken but I just don’t seem able to eat much more at the minute. I’m very excited because for lunch I managed to eat some yellow in the form of eggs and beans. By the way, I do think she has taken an extreme approach to the avocado but her limited diet isn’t that uncommon.

I would encourage her to talk to her midwife. They’ve probably had all these questions hundreds of times before and my midwife isn’t making me feel stupid when I ask stupid questions. She should also mention her heightened anxiety to her midwife, who will be able to keep a better eye on her and refer her for support if she needs it.

She’s difficult

Wow I thought my health anxiety was bad...not bothered about an avocado 😂

OP I get you want to support her but being pregnant is not an excuse to treat people like that.

I thought it was true that listeria could go undetected in pregnant women, unfortunately. This source agrees: www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/listeria-and-pregnancy

It's also true that pregnant women are more likely to get it, so peoples arguments about "well you've never had listeria before" end up difficult to take because a) they'll have been less likely to get it as they'll have had stronger immune systems pre pregnancy, and b) they might have been symptomless and never known. BUT in spite of all this it's still so so so unlikely. And if somehow it did happen to her I dont see how she could conclude it was that avocado.

I've been through these stresses myself (though I hope have never lashed out other than at my poor husband!) and have had to adapt my diet a bit in order to help myself not worry. That includes things like regularly using a temperature probe, choosing dairy substitutes over dairy, and washing things like avocadoes when I wouldn't have pre pregnancy. It's normal for her to be anxious about certain foods, as long as she isn't taking that out on others.

Point her in the direction of the midwife to refer onto the peri natal team.

Are there not options other than through a midwife? Personally my state of mind improved through talking to friends and reading (generally books around positive thinking etc), but I know I wouldn't have wanted to go through the midwife and for everything to have to be on my medical record.

That’s ridiculous. Apart from anything else it is her responsibility what she eats.

Sorry read update. Encourage her to speak to GP or midwife about foods and pregnancy/ mental health. There are NHS resources but they might also know about others local to her.

@PurpleCurtain

Are there not options other than through a midwife? Personally my state of mind improved through talking to friends and reading (generally books around positive thinking etc), but I know I wouldn't have wanted to go through the midwife and for everything to have to be on my medical record.

When someone is sending multiple abusive texts to someone because they ate a slightly brown avocado, I think we're in the territory of needing referral to the perinatal mental health team, yes.

I'm also worried about her diet in general and the number of things she's stressing about, as it sounds like she's only eating chips, plain toast, and vegan chocolate!

If I was her I would be more concerned about getting more goodness into her diet for her unborn child than an over ripe avocado over a week ago. She doesn't sound right, you're correct to be concerned about her.

PurpleCurtain It's perfectly understandable she might be anxious about her health during pregnancy (this is something I deal with myself) and it's also my understanding that listeria can go undetected but if OP's friend is so anxious then surely she should stay home where she can control what she wants or maybe politely mention to OP before their meal that she is anxious about food so can they wash the avocado thoroughly or whatever it is she wants. Eating there and then sending abusive texts later is a bit rude.

The fact that this is still ongoing (the avocado is even being mentioned in your conversations) without any proof whatsoever that she even has listeria means she does indeed need help. Has she tested positive for listeria? If so, why is she not being treated for it and then she can move on with her life.

The NHS website suggests problems are more likely if you're symptomatic:
www.nhs.uk/conditions/listeriosis/

I re-iterate that her hypochondria has gotten out of hand.

I agree she needs help, but it isn't your job to help her as it's reasonably clear she needs more help than you, her friend, can give. She needs to put on her big girl pants and deal with her own problems (by seeking medical support, by choosing not to eat foods that cause this sort of irrational reaction from her, by taking some level of responsibility for her own actions, ie being abusive to you).

Listeria was found to be present on the skin of some avocados in US. The skin. Not the flesh.