Flu jab worries - reassurance?

[daydreamdaisy]

I'm 13+3 and have yet to have my flu jab that the midwife recommended.
I am fully in support of vaccines, have had all previous and intend to get future dc fully vaccinated.

However, last winter I had a flu jab just after a scan whilst 9 weeks pg and then 2 weeks later at the next scan heartbeat had stopped.

I KNOW logically that these were so likely to be unconnected and just a sad coincidence and that my brain is looking for connections.
But every time I try to book in for my flu jab this time, I end up putting the phone down and crying as part of me is so scared about putting this so desperately wanted baby at (imagined) risk.

How do I get over this? Would you wait until later on say after 16 week scan? I'm really embarrassed and can't talk to anyone about it IRL.

But it hasn’t been tested on pregnant women. So nobody can claim either that’s it safe or that it doesn’t cause miscarriages.

Actually no vaccines are ever placebo tested.

Do not take your scientific information from dodgy websites. Use peer reviewed scientific literature only. There is so much BS online. They have been tested against placebos. There are double blind placebo trials in the published literature. Saying there aren’t any is a standard line rolled out by the AV community and it’s 100 % incorrect. You can literally go onto pubmed and search for the published valid literature on your vaccine of choice.

My friends DC has cerebral palsy and has undergone so many painful surgeries in his short life.
The doctors told her and her DH it was because she had bad flu during her pregnancy.
Having 2 disabled DC myself ( one with mild hemiplegia CP) I would have the flu jab if I was pregnant.

I’m not going to waste energy trying to convince committed anti-vaxxers, but for people like the OP who have had sad and scary experiences (and those who haven’t) it’s always sensible to investigate fully any medical treatment and decide for yourself whether the risks or benefits outweigh the other. From my point of view, the risks of the proven and documented danger of flu in pregnancy, plus the observation of pregnant women being given flu vaccines every year and there being no greater adverse effects than for the rest of the population, as well as the risk, though small but existent, of actually contracting flu, were more convincing than the risks associated with having the vaccine. This is based on my own research, application to my personal circumstances and I freely admit - my own perception of risk. The OP is right to ask questions and her midwife is a good place to start

There is a lot of data on this. Some of the studies are not great quality. There are very few randomised controlled trials because its ethically questionable to risk some women getting flu and getting very ill, for the sake of testing this. The studies tend to look at outcomes for people who did and didn't choose the vaccine afterwards and people's memories are not perfect.

Some examples of research are below. However it depends how used to reading research/reviews you are as to how helpful these are. I was satisfied the vaccine would not pose a risk to my unborn child but flu would. Therefore I had the vaccine. Its up to you what you do next, but I really don't want you to blame or question yourself about what happened last time.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21645515.2018.1540807

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/flu-vaccine-pregnancy

www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4151

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0220910

I am a nurse and 4wks 4days and had my Flu jab today, I get it every year. I come into contact with about 100 patients every week. I am very high risk of catching it.

I am sorry for your loss, you have every right to ask the midwife about the evidence around taking flu Jag in pregnancy.

Vulnerable people are vaccinated (over 65s, long term conditions, children and pregnant women) but it doesn't guarantee you won't catch it as it covers only a few strains. Catching the flu best case scenario - bed bound for a couple of weeks, worst case - death. I'm sorry I don't mean to be so blunt but a lot of people don't realise the severity of it.

Whatever you choose to do, don't feel pressured and make sure your choice is an informed one

I have every vaccine offered, any protection against horrible illnesses and ill take it. I had flu once & ended up in hospital. I hope I never get it again! But at the end of the day, the flu jab is to protect you really, so you can decide on whether you want to take the risk.

But PLEASE get the the whooping cough vaccine at 20 weeks+. This jab is to protect baby, not you. Babies are born with no immunity to it until their first round of vaccinations at 8 weeks. The vaccine given to you in pregnancy provides that protection to baby. You can choose not to protect yourself but your baby is another story. We are incredibly lucky to live in country where our children can be protected from life threatening childhood illnesses.

I got flu just before the vaccine was offered when I was pregnant. I never fully recovered until he was born, I had to take maternity leave early and was still sleeping in the afternoon 2 months later. I would say 100% take it.

However I gave my middlest the vaccine this year as it’s the first time he’s been old enough and I actually wouldn’t do it again for him (not my other children) I’m VERY pro vaccine but this time he’s reached really badly. Very bad fever, he slept for 16 hours the day after he got it. It’s Christmas time, we have so much on what with concerts etc it’s been 2 weeks and he’s still no where near back to normal. Yes it could be coincidence but he has been sleeping brilliantly all his life and suddenly 1 day after the vaccine now he’s not. I don’t want to discourage anyone at all because my older child has had the vaccine many times and never reacted like this, and I’d vaccinate him again in a heartbeat, but would I put the middle one through it again now that he has had this kind of response.

@BlueGingerale don’t post SPCs for the wrong vaccine.

Fluad is for over 65s. Under 65s get a different vaccine.

@chickenstrippers I wonder if you’re muddling up your vaccines - whooping cough vaccine is recommended from 20 weeks but flu vaccine can be given at any point in pregnancy. I doubt very much your area are refusing to give flu vaccine before 20 weeks and if they are you should be challenging them on it - pregnant women are vulnerable to flu by virtue of being slightly immune suppressed, and if they do catch flu they are much more likely to suffer complications including complications for the foetus.

@daydreamdaisy I totally understand your fears, it’s entirely reasonable. Talk to your midwife or practice nurse.

Sorry for your loss x

“ whooping cough vaccine is recommended from 20 weeks”

From 16 weeks in my area so this advice varies

I'm not an anti vaxxer, I've had several losses and whether my anxiety is rational or not I don't feel comfortable getting vaccinations in pregnancy. My child has had all vaccinations and is up to date.
I haven't yet ruled out the vaccinations completely, but I haven't plucked up the courage to get them and didn't last pregnancy either. I read that two of the viruses the Who got wrong anyhow so the vaccine only protects you against the other two viruses. If you are affected by another virus you won't be protected anyhow. Its up to you whether yoh want the vaccination or nit. The midwives will insist that you get them regardless as that is the guidance they must follow.

Infant mortality rate in developed countries is highest in countries that give the most vaccinations.

The US gives the most vaccinations to babies under 1 and it has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/?fbclid=IwAR1Ol3r8MPqr-L1X3NcIaAQXj8azCg-Hm7MZHw4sKCfP7h35y6BWm3MvIRQ

Where did all the horrible anti-vaxxers come from!

OP, what you said makes complete sense. Sometimes forcing yourself to make decisions that you know are logically right can be hard in the face of personal experience.

Getting flu can be damaging to a pregnancy. Vaccinations are not. You know what you need to do, you just need to see past the arbitrary link in your mind between your previous miscarriage and the flu vaccine. Can you take a friend with you for the vaccine? Also talk to midwives is good advice, they’ll reassure you that having the vaccine is the correct choice for your baby’s health. Try your best to get on with it soon as once you’ve had the vaccine it takes a little while to work in your body and we are getting into peak flu season.

As well as helping yourself and your baby, it helps everyone. The flu vaccine for yourself helps every vulnerable baby, every old person, every immunosuppressed person (like me) that you come into contact with in day to day life.

This is the trouble with asking about vaccines on the Internet - between the anti-vaxxers and the “get the vaccine you idiot” responses (though actually here no one has been that bad) it’s very hard to ask reasonable questions as everyone should about any medical treatment proposed to them

I declined it in both my pregnancies. It really annoyed me that every single appointment not only did the midwife try to push me into it but the receptionist in the doctors would also ask if I’d booked it. I’ve never had flu and wasn’t keen on having unnecessary vaccinations in pregnancy. I was catching the train to work everyday so around people a lot, didn’t catch flu and had two very healthy pregnancies. We are planning a 3rd next year, I won’t be having it again.

I might add I did have the whooping cough vaccine each time, the benefits far outweighed the risks on that one.

OP-so sorry for your loss. I will take the advice of many on here. I've had vaccinations in both my pregnancy and they both turned out ok..Please speak to someone regarding your concerns

@BlueGingerale the US also has one of the worst outcomes for maternity care in the developed country despite spending more. My friend recently wanted to go give birth there and was advised by the visa official to look elsewhere as the US maternity care is rubbish. In fact, healthwise they rank low generally compared to everywhere else in the world so I your anti-vax rant should be directed elsewhere.

On the other hand, I've seen pregnant women needing ECMO for flu -

I’m going to get it when in the second trimester in a couple of weeks, something I read said that it was more beneficial to the baby to get it in 2nd or 3rd tri... also something in me doesn’t want to do anything to risk something happening before 12 weeks. I will go and get it in 3 weeks or so, any later I don’t think there’s much point as winter will be nearly over! At 13+3 I’d go but understand your hesitancy.

The USA class pre term births in their infant mortality rates whilst other counties do not, that’s the biggest contributing factor to the comparatively high value. Nothing to do with vaccines. Although if the pro-disease community keeps on spreading misinformation online those mortality rates will get even higher.

@BlueGingerale hello thank you for sharing this leaflet. I am in a terrible depression after losing my pregnancy at 8 weeks. It’s my second pregnancy and I have a DS 2 year old who was born healthy without me having flu vaccine. But for my second pregnancy I was perfectly normal and then one day I go to a pharmacist to get some medicine Showing my maternity exemption card. She after knowing I am pregnant insisted me to have the vaccine and I had stupidly let her give this injection to me. I had this injection say around 10 am in the morning and the next day around 8.30 am I suddenly felt all my pregnancy symptoms has gone and I felt like I have no baby in me. I had severe morning sickness for both my pregnancy and I knew something was not normal. But this flu vaccine did not strike me. I rang my midwife and asked her about the loss of pregnancy symptoms and she said it’s completely normal. I believed her words until I started bleeding around my 11th week. Sadly even that was considered normal when spoken to Gp and when we went for 12 week scan we found that we had a mmc.

We both were devastated and shocked. I could not stop crying and only that time we realised how much we were attached to the baby. We booked for a d and c a week after and at 3 weeks I was still getting positive hpt. Went for internal scan and they said I have retained products. Since then I have been to 3 internal scans to check and each time they said to wait

It’s been 9 weeks and lost all my hope of getting periods. Not knowing what to do and scared of ashermans I had to meet D.R. lower at Harley street and he has confirmed that there is no ashermans for now and he said its definitely retained products 3 Cm big. He said if I won’t get my periods until jan 14th he will person a hysteroscopy.

I know many women go through a lot but we were drained out of energy and cried to each other. On top of losing the much wanted little one all these surgeries made us depressed. We both don’t have family in uk and I don’t have mom and dad none of our relatives can even help as they are in different country

We both were speechless and continued to work as we can’t wiggle our jobs that much. Finally on 20th December I got my periods exactly 2 months after d and c.

I hope i will pass my retained tissue. This is will be confirmed by another scan on 30th.

Sorry for writing a long story but since miscarriage mumsnet has been my biggest support and I want everyone to know that please please please don’t take the flu vaccine.

I know each and every doctor recommends it but honestly after experiencing this horror I don’t want this to happen to anybody

I won't be getting the flu vaccine - I've never had flu in my life and have never had the vaccine either.

I will get the whooping cough vaccine when it's offered though, as I understand it's to protect the baby rather than you.

I probably would have got the flu jab if I was 24 weeks plus by flu season came but I’m also only around 12 weeks and wouldn’t get it at this stage

My friend is an ICU doctor and tells me that every winter they see numerous ICU admissions for otherwise healthy pregnant women that have contracted flu, and some lose their babies as a result. That and the fact that my midwife friends all had their flu jabs in pregnancy was enough to convince me.

The thing is, tragic as the stories are about people who had flu jab and had a miscarriage, it's most likely just confirmation bias. People like to find reasons for things, even though miscarriage in most cases is something that there isn't a 'reason' for, at least not one that we have any control over. With the number of pregnant women getting flu jabs, it's inevitable that some in the first trimester will have miscarriages because that's what happens unfortunately. It doesn't mean there's a link to the flu jab, it's just something sad that does happen fairly often. It's like the MMR and autism 'link'. Around 18 months is when some symptoms of autism become more apparent, so people look to find a reason and decide it's the MMR because they had that and then their child suddenly became autistic. In reality, their child was always going to develop autism regardless, but it's easier to stomach if you have a 'cause' for something rather than just the fact that life can be cruel and sometimes it's nothing anyone has done, you just get dealt a shit hand.