Glass of wine on Chrismas day.

[LucyB1]

Hi, I'm going to be 12+5 on Christmas day and i am absolutely GAGGING for a glass of red. Is that really bad cause I'm not quite out of the first trimester??

What Chunderella said. I was drawing the comparison between a risky activity (scuba diving) with a non-risky milder version of it (swimming) to parallel the risky behaviour of binge drinking with the non risky behaviour of having a single glass of wine with dinner. Asking 'why take the risk?' ignores the basic fact that having that one glass of wine is NOT a risk to the baby. It is NOT equivalent to feeding a newborn wine directly. Binge drinking is definitely a risk but it is a completely different thing to having an occasional glass - they both involve alcohol but are totally different in terms of harm to the baby. Just like scuba diving and swimming both involve water but one is very dangerous to a foetus and the other isn't.

The reason I drink, from time to time and in small amounts, during pregnancy has been explained above Msvee. I am really sorry about your family history and I could see that it would give you strong opinions. Given that, I would leave it there, but if you genuinely want to understand the other side:

I am not willing to live a significant chunk of my adult life (and, as I said, with bf-ing I'd be looking at around 7 years) where I have to avoid some things because for moral judgement reasons people have decided that they have to be proved safe before I do them, not that I will stop if they are proved risky.

Yes, you have to go to work. But you do a million things each day that you don't have to do. There are some that have known risks, but are still considered morally acceptable. Here are some examples:

• I crossed the road to buy some milk. We could have lived without it and had toast;
• I ran back up and down the stairs to fetch my wedding ring before going out. Unnecessary extra risky trip up and down the stairs at speed!
• I drove my car on a social outing. I could have stayed home.

There are also things I happily do because they are normal. On the assumptions made about alcohol, I should be waiting for a study to prove it's safe before I do any of these:

• I put on make up;
• I washed up with washing up liquid;
• I washed my face and body with various products;
• I put on deodorant
• I am sitting in a house with wifi.

But I don't, I do them, and if someone proves to me that I am risking my baby, well then I will stop. Just as I wouldn't drink a bottle of wine, because that is a risk. Just as I have stopped eating meat pate (which I love - there is a slightly more complex response on homemade vegetable or fish pate!).

It has naff all to do with relaxing, deserving it or being selfish. And everything to do with the fact that, if you are going to tell an adult to modify an otherwise perfectly health and responsible behaviour because of pregnancy or breastfeeding, you should have an actual reason greater than a moral high horse.

One glass of wine isn't going to do any harm OP. I had an occasional small glass during my last trimester, didnt fancy it before that.
Drinking a few glasses of wine a few times a week, sometimes more sometimes less is a bit much though. So is alcohol less harmful than nicotine then, or any other drug? Was pregnant a few years ago, and hcp's were dead against anything, does the current research show there is no harm?

Didn't I say on my last post that the point us to educate people. I wrote what I wrote due to my own experiences. However after receiving replies I am learning more. I am not on any high horse my post was probably emotive due to experiences and I will definitely go and read more.

msvee - The 'moral high horse' comment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the 'why take the risk, you are being selfish' argument.

But your first post: You guys seem to care more about yourself relaxing and you 'deserving it ' and arent able to stop for a few months more than your babies. Dont they deserve it. does sound fairly judgmental, doesn't it?

Like I said Msvee, I would really recommend Expecting Better if you are interested in reading more around this topic. It's very balanced, accessible and informative.

Penguins yes it was judgemental but because someone said they drink because they deserve it but really not my business is it.

Jellyandcake will take a look at it thanks.

June nicotine is a harmful toxin that your body can't process safely in any quantity. Your liver can metabolise alcohol in moderate quantities - it's when your liver is overloaded and can't keep up with the amount of alcohol that it is harmful. So smoking is definitely more dangerous than light drinking. Other drugs carry severe risks that are definitely more harmful than a single glass of wine. Drinking heavily is obviously a different matter!

Ah right, things move on all the time with pregnancy advice don't they.
They cared less about the fags than booze when I was pregnant!

God, i'd absolutely murder a bottle of crisp, cold, dry NZ sauvingon blanc right now. While i was drinking it i'd let a gorgeous Malbec breathe, then lash into that as well. Anyone like to join me??

I MISS WINE!!!!!!!!! and i WILL HAVE SOME on xmas day!!!!!!!!!!!
My mother was pissed quite a few times with me, and i'm perfect, have a very high IQ and have cruised through life with no health issues whatsover!

Ho HO ho and merry christmas to you all :)

I saw a programme on TV about drinking in pregnancy and after that I really wouldn't drink. at. all. The paediatrician interviewed said the following:
Because the growing fetus cannot break down alcohol in the way an adult can, any alcohol in the fetus' system will stay there for hours and hours. This is why it is so much more dangerous for the fetus. Also a small amount of alcohol for an adult is a huge amount for a tiny fetus so what is a very moderate amount for you can still be enough to poison a fetus.

It is a known fact that drinking lots of alcohol can cause fetal alcohol syndrome, but there is some evidence that drinking more moderate amounts of alcohol in pregnancy could be causing more subtle learning difficulties in some children. He thinks that the increase in learning difficulties of the adhd type may be due to it becoming more the norm to drink wine with a meal/in an evening than it used to be 50 or so years ago.

It is also possible that different genes could cause a one fetus to be more likely to get subtle brain damage than others, so while one mother can "get away" with drinking small amounts with no effects on her child, another might not be able to.

It isn't just the first trimester where a fetus is most at risk of problems from alcohol. In fact, fetal development in the third trimester means that this is a stage where they are particularly at risk form effects of alcohol.

Yes this is still an area where research is ongoing and it is complicated because different combinations of genes mean effects are different for different babies but this is a genuine area under research where there are definite possibilities of serious problems, even if the mechanisms haven't been worked out yet. Yes it has not been totally proven but there is a possibility that small to moderate amounts of alcohol can cause significant problems , so this is whre my "why risk it" comes in. You just don't know what combination of genes your baby has and how much alcohol (if any) is "OK".

I teach students with subtle learning difficulties ( the sort where they can be quite bright. be in mainstream school, but really struggle to achieve their potential because of specific issues) and find it heartbreaking at times to see the difficulties the student experience and just wouldn't want to risk it myself! This is absolutely NOT making a moral judgement, just a very strong desire not to see children struggle with learning more than they have to!

See No alcohol no risk

Well... I graduated 3rd in my Masters class in university (as well as 2nd in my A level equivalent in the entire county of 200,000 people) and yet my mother drank regularly while pregnant with me, i've never had any subtle learning difficulties whatsoever, nor had any health problems (ever, i've never even had the flu ffs) so i really think 99% of your post is scaremongering bollox educatingari.. sorry. If you want to believe it yourself then that's fine of course, but dont make the rest of us guilty for having a glass of vino with our turkey! Ho ho ho!!

To which I would respond: something like this

Just had a look at that website. I don't have sound on my laptop right now, but what the hell has pouring a neat shot of vodka onto a hen's egg got to do with anything except dramatic scare tactics?

FAS is a dreadful, and avoidable, condition. No one is doubting that. But that isn't the same as the odd glass now and again.

"Well... I graduated 3rd in my Masters class in university (as well as 2nd in my A level equivalent in the entire county of 200,000 people) and yet my mother drank regularly while pregnant with me, i've never had any subtle learning difficulties whatsoever, nor had any health problems (ever, i've never even had the flu ffs) so i really think 99% of your post is scaremongering bollox educatingari.. "

You see this is the problem - some children with some genetic make-ups will be at lower risk of having adverse effects so any anecdotal "My mum drank and I'm OK" stories don't mean that another child won't be affected. You can of course choose to not listen to the latest investigations on this issue but it doesn't change the situation.

There is a lower risk of children being affected with low maternal intake of alcohol but it isn't risk free! Watch the link I put on my last post. especially the effect on startle reflexes of fetuses where mothers have been drinking low amounts of alcohol. This link isn't scaremongering, just giving info and where research is up to!

Of course make up your own mind but research it first, don't just go on anecdotal "I was OK" stories.

I'm not out to make anyone feel guilty or be any kind of killjoy, just trying to give real information.

If someone was on here saying they thought it was OK to smoke just a few cigs a week while pregnant because their mum had smoked when expecting them and they were OK, would I be a killjoy or trying to make them feel guilty for pointing out some research about it?

The evidence on low levels of alcohol being a problem is less clear cut than with smoking but it is still quite possible it is a problem.

Well Penguin - when you have sound watch the education for midwives video - that the thing I really was linking for people to see.

And also - I see your link and raise you this one

Again - not trying to make anyone feel guilty, just trying to provide a bit of counterbalance to the anecdotal.

I do feel strongly about this because I see the difficulties faced by children I teach. Yes it isn't clear cut, of course not all learning difficulties are caused by alcohol. It is a difficult are area to research scientifically because you can't ethically conduct controlled trials but have to rely on the mothers' self-reporting of how much alcohol they consumed. More research is obviously needed but there are genuine issues there to be considered.

I'm surprised someone with a masters does not back up their argument with research evidence!

The above poster raises an excellent point about the lack of research evidence. Clearly no pregnant woman is going to enter into a study about alcohol in pregnancy and be in the 'regular drinkers group'. That is why there is a lack of evidence surrounding this area.

Oh blimey - it was all a bit different 15 years ago!

Mabel - In the interests of scientific maybe all those MNetters who are convinced a couple of units of alcohol a week will do no harm should volunteer themselves as study candidates to those trying to research the situation!

There are plenty of large trials where pregnant women admit to being in the regular drinking group. There are plenty of people and plenty of places where light drinking in pregnancy is considered acceptable. For example, in this country women used to be advised - by doctors - to drink stout for iron. People often say that pregnant women in France drink wine without stigma or shame. There is plenty of evidence supporting the conclusion that the occasional glass of wine is not a risk.

I just don't understand why people can't just not have a drink for 9 months? Is it really so important you must have a drink because it's Christmas Day? That's pretty sad really!

Yes women did used to be recommended to drink Guinness for iron, so you have to ask yourself why this advice has changed!

Do you have links for that Jelly?

IIRC pregnant women in France tend to drink wine very watered down, not at full strength.

I think you are actually factually incorrect when you say "There is plenty of evidence supporting the conclusion that the occasional glass of wine is not a risk." Where have you seen a scientific study saying this?

Charlotte 31 I completely agree with you! I LOVE a glass of wine (or six) and drank whilst ttc as I knew it could take a while (which it did!) but as soon as I got my bfp last week I have not had a drop and won't just because it's Christmas...don't see the point?!