Grandparent smoking

[lozster]

I'm 20 weeks pregnant and already dreading planning what to do about my baby seeing his grandmother (my mil). He will be her only grandchild and naturally she is delighted. However she is a heavy smoker who does not leave the house. Currently, if her son or daughter or me visit she will smoke in one of two rooms away from the living room. One of these rooms has folding doors that don't seal and adjoins the living room. When on her own she smokes all over the house - there is actually black ash dropped every where. When I visit I put on dirty clothes and wash them and me as soon as I get home.

My oh has begged her to stop since he was a kid. She says she will never stop for anyone. Like many smokers she does not believe her home smells of smoke, thinks that smoking in one room while we are there is a compromise that solves the problem, thinks that low tar is a healthy choice and thinks that health issues are scare stories. Oh gave her some some smoking cessation material and she went crazy although she had talked about 'cutting down' previously.

So what to do about baby? We are not exactly frequent visitors now and she won't come to us as she won't leave her own home partly due to being unsteady on her feet and partly because I won't let her smoke in my house (she thought standing in the kitchen with the back door open counted as outside). This is my PFB I'm not ashamed to admit conceived after 7 years of treatment. Am I being precious? I am concerned mainly about SID syndrone though the aesthetic considerations of a stinky baby/pram/car seat concern me too. On the other hand I know how much this little one will mean to her and I don't want to deny her or my son that relationship. Has anyone else come up against this and how did you handle it?

I am in a similiar dilemma. My FIL is a heavy smoker, in fact so much so that we've not visited DH's parents much this pregnancy because I threw up a couple of times when we stayed there and I was around 10 weeks pregnant; my morning sickness was triggered by the smell of cigarette smoke. I'm not going to have them visit for the first two weeks anyway. I've warned MIL that FIL cannot smoke and then hold the baby, she also reeks of cigarette smoke (I pointed out politely to her she'd be spending 2 hours in a car with him smoking before they arrived at ours and I didn't want baby to inhale their fag smells).
With DD1 I was also quite assertive about it, and FIL had to wait to have his cigarette. I couldn't stop him or MIL from holding the baby but I was quite precious about other people holding DD1 for long anyway, till she was about 6 months old.
Dunno if that helps!

You are in NO way being precious and if anyone dares to suggest that you are then they clearly are not aware of the risks to newborns through passive smoking.

My NCT teacher recently told me a story about one of her previous group who drove to the hospital in the car with her hubby who smoked one cigarette with the window open on the way there. Once there, she entered into a research study and when monitored, found that the levels of monoxide in her lungs were the same as someone who smoked 40 a day. Terrifying stuff!

My grandmother is a chain smoker who never leaves her house, too, and I have already told my dad (it's his mum) that unless she comes to visit us or we meet in a public place, she won't get to meet her first great-grandchild. I do feel somewhat guilty, but frankly if she would rather sit alone and smoke than hold off for a couple of hours to meet the next generation of her family, then it will be her loss. My child is far too important to risk anything that might damage his/her breathing.

You are doing the right thing. Can't offer any practical solutions but perhaps get your DH to pick her up and take her to yours? Or a family friendly pub for lunch?

Good luck whatever happens :)

You could try asking your midwife or GP for any printed material there might be available on the effects of passive smoking or exposure to heavy smokers on a newborn baby. Perhaps if you have something you can show your MIL she might be more mindful when it comes to smoking around the baby. Failing that, maybe find "official" stuff you can print out from the internet.

You can have the conversation with her about really wanting to be involved with the baby but that, although it is her choice to smoke regardless of the effects on her own health, the effects on a vulnerable baby should be very much taken into account, as the adults that care for the baby are the only ones that have any control over the harm that comes to them from outside sources.

You can't force someone to stop smoking and she had the right to be offended when handed cessation pamphlets. Her body, her house, her choice.

As far as baby is concerned, I'd feel the same as you. I would find some way of showing her the SIDS advice and see what she says. I do think you have to tread carefully so as not to offend. I wouldn't be taking my baby into a smoking environment so if there was no real compromise based on the SIDS knowledge, I'd find ways of DH bringing her to your house instead to smoke outside only - and no smoking in the car on the way!

Glad I'm not the only one with this dilemma. I think because she is so isolated she does not realise how much views on smoking and smoking behaviour have changed. I could really do with some literature to share with her to attempt to make this about the baby and not about trying go dictate her behaviour. However, the very firm nhs guidance I remember seeing when my niece was born 8 years ago doesn't seem to be there now. Have guidelines changed?

Unfortunately bag cat she doesn't leave her own home at all partly because she is not very steady on her feet and partly because of smoking restrictions. She won't visit our house because she can't smoke inside and she gave up the restaurant meals she used to enjoy when the smoking ban came in (she wasn't quite as wobbly then). My OH took the smoking cessation material to her because she had mentioned cutting down.

I wouldn't put a baby into that environment. It might be PFB but theres nothing wrong with that, babies are
precious and we should do all we can to keep them from harm. (Im not a fan of the PFB thing on here, but that's juice for another thread!)

Don't take him/her. Sounds like your mil has made her decision to put smoking over and above her family.

Have you visited since announcing your pregnancy? I had very similar worries re pil. They smoked in the kitchen with us there all the time. Sometimes by the open window if we were lucky: big deal. However, mil has not smoked a cig in front of me since announcing my first pregnancy 3 years ago. fil gave up from that moment and hasn't smoked since. neither me or DH have ever spoken to them about it, it was their decision. Her house still smells of smoke but she never smokes around the kids or us and cigs/ashtrays are never left lying around. It's not ideal but a lot better than my initial fears.

I appreciate we are probably quite lucky and not everyone is so understanding but my point is, she may surprise you. See what happens when you visit next and if no change despite you being pg, an honest conversation led by your DH may well be necessary. You are not being precious and have every right to lay down expectations.

on a similar note, sisinlaw has a dog ( staff) that she used to bring round to mil. we made it quite clear that we didn't want the dog anywhere near the baby. it wasn't a popular decision and I'm sure we were mocked behind our backs but we didn't care. Our wishes have always been respected.

Hey Lozster this is really tough and I am in a similar situation with my dad. He's always been a heavy smoker, and although he's cut down, he still has 20-30 a day. When at his house, he'll smoke outside the conservatory, with the intervening door shut, but I always come home smelling like an ashtray.

He's excited about his first grandchild and we know he'll want to be very hadns-on when it arrives, but it suddenly dawned on me that we won't be able to stay over at his house anymore overnight (OH prefers to stay at my dad's as he feels uncomfortable in my mum's house (they're divorced) which is smaller, too).

I don't want to upset him, but at the same time don't want to have our child surrounded by smoke. I also read somewhere that smokers shouldn't be allowed to even hold newborns because of the CO risks. I'm not sure how to tell him this without hurting his feelings...

You are not being precious at all. It sounds like your DH is totally on your side so that is good.

My ILs are heavy smokers and my DH hates it. Their house stank of smoke. When they visited after DD is born, they had patches so they don't need to smoke around our house. They live in NZ so they will need that to survive the flight! But it tells you how much they are willing to put up with to see their grandchild. (It's their only too). We haven't visited yet but planned to next year. I think what we will do is just to ban them smoking indoors. They think it is ok to pop out to the garden and smoke with the patio doors wide open. We will have to make sure they get closed. There is no way we can get rid of the smell inside the house.

I think the best you could do is coming up with a compromise with your DH. And let your DH do the negotiation. Preferably you can get her to smoke outdoors while you are visiting. If not in a room where the baby won't visit at all.

We are in exactly the same position. OH step-mother and siblings smoke in the house when 1st announced it they would smoke in the conservatory but since SIL has announced she's pregnant-2nd pregnancy (she smoked all through 1st pregnancy-baby born with asthma) they smoke inside now-almost, if she doesn't mind then I shouldn't. So long and short of it we don't go round as much, they can come to us, which means surprise, surprise we haven't seen them for about 7-8wks!!!

Hi Ladies,

Sympathies to all of you!! My BIL smokes like a chimney, and I live in germany where there are still many smoking bars and pubs here, and many of our friends smoke too, so this has been on my mind loads. The risks of SIDS with third hand smoke - a relatively new concept, but it is considered risky because the smoke and chemicals settle on the clothes, and the baby then breathes them in directly into their tiny little lungs. The other risks are unknown - but they include asthma, skin conditions, SIDS etc - they are not to be taken lightly at all. And this is from third hand smoke, and also the known risks from second hand. There is stacks on this in respected places on the internet (both second hand and third hand).

www.nhs.uk/news/2010/02February/Pages/third-hand-smoking-child-risk.aspx
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7813124.stm

We know that the risks come from - second hand smoke, or third hand smoke which is on furniture, clothes etc etc. So what you want to do is minimise risk. I think the risks come from prolonged exposure (i.e. the main care givers). And god know what pollution does - can be just as bad depending on where you live. Two options:-

1. When the baby comes, people are not allowed to smoke before they come if the want a proper hold, and have clean, smoke free clothes on.
2. Short hold with a clean blanket from us over their clothes, and get them to wash hands.

I don't know what I would do if I was you with your MIL, FIL and other posters who have worries - I would get DH or myself to explain gently the new risks of both third and second hand smoke with children and partic SIDS. That this is a worry for you, but you want your child to have a relationship with her/him. I might suggest to her that could you visit briefly when she/he has just got up in the morning (less cigs on her).

OP - is there one room that is available to be aired and kept as smoke free as possible? ask her to to air room and give her and blanket to put over her clothes when holding baby (say it case baby is 'sick' but insist she washes hands). I also agree that she has chosen smoking above all else - but that is because she is addicted, and very unlikely to change now. If you say she can come to you if DH picks her up, and drops her back? and just do the blanket/wash hands option and tough she must smoke outside - would that work? TBH when your baby is there, a couple of hours, using a clean blanket, etc wont seem like a big deal. But the bigger issues is subsequent visits - so I think have an honest chat with her, and see if you can find a compromise for all of you....

Good Luck!!

Thanks teaandflapjacks. I have not heard of third hand smoke. I'll have a read on the links you gave. I thought it'd be ok as long as they smoke outdoors. (I know indoors is very bad as the smoke has no where to go). The ILs visited when DD was 3mo last time. I felt so lucky they came from NZ instead of us visiting! That means they had been smoke free for at least a day before meeting DD.

I'm not sure what to do now visiting NZ next year. We will have to stay at their place, which has cigarette smoke all over the curtains, towels, beddings. If all go to plan, we'll be bringing a 4-6mo baby.

Yes, it's the third hand smoke that concerns me. Unfortunately she won't go out of her house at all (and she has always been 'chauffered', never had to drive herself) not even for a 20 minute run in the car to the coast last weekend. So my options are this:

1. Get other half on side - I think he currently wants to avoid the row and doesn't understand the risk to the baby himself though he HATES the smoking
2. Ask mid-wife for some printed literature so I can say 'the mid-wife has given me this to show to family members'
3. See if she could not smoke in one room at all, not just when we are there
4. Ask her not to smoke before holding the baby
5. Try to stay outside when visiting
6. Keep visits short
7. Hose baby down afterwards and change clothes immedaitely
8. Take as little as possible in to her house that can pick up chemicals
9. ??? - don't take baby round?? It is SO difficult

what about getting her not to smoke in the kitchen, as there is less porous stuff in there to absorb chemicals? I think the NHS does have literature on this so definitely ask mid wife - also have a look on the internet and send the other half the articles, to get him on-side.

My MIL is no where near as bad as some mentioned on this thread but I, too, am worried. She probably 'only' smokes 10-20 a day, but necessarily her clothes, hands and hair really smell of smoke.

If / when she comes and visits us she usually stands in the back doorway or the front porch with outside door open but inevitably the smell comes inside.

When the baby comes, I would really prefer her not to touch the baby without changing her top and washing her hands. I know this sounds precious but it is such a risk factor with SIDS I simply don't want to take any chances.

Right now, I cannot imagine going to visit her at all and having the baby sleep at her house, which is a shame as she lives right by the beach and would be a nice place to take the baby to visit!

She's a former doctor herself, so I think the only answer will be for DH to send her some quite detailed medical literature and the ask her to reach her own conclusions. Last resort will be just to ban her from smoking full stop if she is to have contact. As this is our pfb and DH is her only child I'm hoping she will play ball!!

OLTT - you could have a chat with them upfront, say lots of new research has come out and you have been warned by your doctors and medical staff about it. Ask them to pull back from smoking in a few rooms in their house?

lozster - i agree with taking as little stuff in - use plastic bags and keep stuff in car? your chap should talk to her though - its his mum and if she is really difficult about it, question why you make a huge effort when she is being entirely selfish and you are just thinking of your little treasure.

There's some really good advice here, thanks teaandflapjacks - especially the thought of getting NHS leaflets to hand out.

I am 21 weeks now, so have a while to go before this kicks into gear. Would it be fairer to start making noises now (and therefore give DF a chance to give up if he wants to try), or wait til closer to the time, when we'll be setting out visiting guidelines to all family (which will include no smoking before visits)?

BpnaDea - my DH thought I was talking rubbish at first with this - until I found plenty of detailed medical studies and got him to read them all. He then went about telling all of his friends and is totally on my side with it. One of our friends had a baby 3 weeks ago, and the partner - a heavy smoker - thanks to what my DH has told him, just stopped the day he was born - we were all amazed. Incidentally - my DH still smokes, and will stop by the time the baby comes. It was my way of getting him to stop, the medical info - partic with risk of SIDS. He said, he would never forgive himself if anything happened. If your MIL is a doctor - find the medical studies (just google for half an hour risks of third and second hand smoke - there is stacks of info) and get your midwife to give you some literature too - I am sure she would be reasonable when faced with info. As an ex-smoker myself, I wonder whether people worry too much about offending, when if you are just honest and upfront, most of the time no offence is caused. My sister insisted on my DH not smoking around her baby (at least 8 hours she said), that he must have clean clothes etc and he was not in the least offended or bothered by it, and this was before he read all the articles I sent him. He said 'her baby - it is totally up to her what she wants if I want a relationship with my niece'.... And I think she worried about it before telling me to tell him, and sounded quite stressed when we discussed it.

BraveLilBear - I would start sounding out now- tie it into an appointment, say they asked you about smoking and people smoking round you - and perhaps have some info to hand over. This was you are just the messenger... :-)

I really feel for you. I'm pg and there's no way I could tolerate taking my child to her house. There has been a lot of good advice upthread but I think you main priority should be educating your DH first as it is him that needs to be firm with her. Getting her to arrange to one entirely smoke free room in her house is the only compromise I can think of if there's absolutely no way she will meet you elsewhere.
My MW is very geared into the whole stopping smoking thing - obviously this is mostly about the mother but they must have some info that they can given to their dh.

PS you are absolutely NOT being precious or unreasonable. Doing the right thing trying to sort what best to do now.

We have a similar issue with my MIL and it is a conversation my DH is going to have to have with her before the baby arrives in August. When we go to the house, even if we only stay for 30 minutes, we both come away able to smell smoke on our clothes - she doesn't even smoke whilst we are there but the smell just lingers and transfers to our clothes. Neither of us wants our baby to be stinking of smoke, never made the health implications.

We really don't want to upset her as she is so excited about the baby and she missed out on a lot of her other grandchildren's first few years due to falling out with her other DIL (not to do with smoking). DH definitely needs to have the conversation with her before baby arrives. I think I will ask midwife for some leaflets etc when I see her next week and DH can then give them to MIL to read.

I'm not sure if it would work but why not buy her an electronic cigarette and ask her to try it out, explain to her that you don't want the baby exposed to secondhand smoke and you would appreciate if she would give the electronic one's a go and see if she can keep to those when you visit. Unfortunately you will struggle to get a committed smoker to not smoke in their own houses and they won't understand the 3rd hand smoke as generally they won't notice the lingering smell.
I would suggest if you're going to try the electronic cigarette you check online reviews and buy a good brand, hopefully if she likes it she might cut down on the real ones in her own time (I know a few people that have switched completely to the electronic ones) and I believe that once brought they are a lot cheaper.