Danish research on drinking alcohol in pregnancy

[OneTwoOrThree]

BBC Article

Interesting, and hopefully of some comfort to those who have drunk a lot bit before they knew they were pregnant, and those who enjoy the occasional large medium glass of wine.

The thing is Bettybat that whether the argument flies for you or not, your POV appears to be predicated on the idea that it's better to avoid moderate alcohol consumption in pregnancy. But there is no basis for that view. In the absence of any evidence otherwise, it's no more rational than avoiding any other foodstuff. Of course alcohol is harmful if you have too much. So is just about everything. Would you base your view about moderate consumption of any other food or drink on the effects of overindulging in it? If so, that's silly, and if not, why not? Your own preconceptions are colouring your views here, and you basically admit that.

Gloucestergirl is correct about people ignoring advice they know to be wrong, although I don't agree that it has to become more stringent to get attention. That just discredits it further.

I totally agree with FlangelinaBallerina. Why avoid something you enjoy unless there's a really good reason?

When you diet, you have to avoid a lot of food you enjoy, but many diets these days allow for "sins"; a glass of wine, a bar of chocolate, a cake etc. Thereby accepting that we occasionally need something to enjoy. Implying someone has a problem because they don't want to give up something completely really infuriates me!

"Stupid societal outlook towards women's bodies combined with silly attitudes towards alcohol making way for nonsensical nannying."

How poetic, geekette :)

I stick to the 1 or 2, once or twice rule, although in reality it has been 1.5 a handful of times each pregnancy - if I go out for dinner and there is really nice wine, or some other social occasion.

And the few glasses I've had I've really enjoyed.

Then again, I've also enjoyed the Camembert I've eaten and the Mr Whippy ice creams (where there are actual, known risks), so I guess I'm the kind of pregnant woman who shouldn't be allowed to make my own decisions about what I eat.

There's also some 'if I want it then it must be bad for me' false logic going on here, e.g.

monkeymoma : I know that SOME coffee is allowed, but the fact that I NEED it and struggle with cutting down suggests that actually I need to detox from it completely!

That's just our puritanical past speaking! Logically speaking, it doesn't suggest that at all.

Wanting/liking something doesn't make it bad. If I've had a weekend of eating too much cheese-on-toast and pasta (it happens), then by Monday I'm desperate for some proper food: fish, rice, and plenty of veg is my winning combo. Good food tastes amazing, and after a few days of eating crap, you really feel you NEED it. Obviously doesn't make it bad.

To take it to the absurd: I also really struggle to cut down on oxygen.

monkeymoma, physical addiction to coffee is caused by some changes in the way receptors in your brain react to caffeine, causing them to release and react to certain chemicals differently. I can't think of any mechanism by which your brain having been previously been changed in this way could make the effect of caffeine on your baby worse. It's almost certainly the caffeine passed to your baby which is the problem, not your reaction to the caffeine that's made its way to your brain. So the fact that you NEED coffee doesn't make it worse for you than it would be for someone who wasn't addicted. It's certainly nothing to do with accumulated toxins, and you don't need to detox (well no more than your incredible body already does every day, using your liver, kidneys and skin). Likewise, your psychological addiction and the positive associations you have for coffee obviously affect only you, not your baby.

Last night I had a glass of Prosecco. It was ice-cold and oh so dry. Beautifully chilled and bubbly in its tall glass. Spine-tinglingly delicious.

Oh, and earlier this week I had a Brie and cranberry sandwich in my Boots meal deal. Had finished the lot (plus Innocent smoothie and caramel shortbread) before I even twigged I'd eaten it. Thought "oops" for about 30 seconds, before I got on with the more important task of brewing up.

Obviously I am a fucking irresponsible, selfish cow who shouldn't be allowed to breed.

btw - I'm just pointing out the logical traps we can fall into without realising, based on what our culture tells us.

Obviously, what I said about coffee to monkeymoma doesn't apply to alcohol addiction, where previous over-use may have damaged the liver, which will make it less effective at removing alcohol.

The use of "allowed" when talking about food or drink in pregnancy automatically makes me go purple in the face.

I am a grown woman and the NHS or any other body does not govern what I put into my body. I want what is best for my baby but I am still a person for 9 months and won't turn myself into an empty vessel blindly taking on advice at face value.

(I drank nowt for the first 12 weeks and from then on I have had the odd shandy/glass of wine. I do not "need" a drink as some posters have stated, but I do enjoy one occasionally. Similarly, I don't "need" chocolate or any of the other non-nutritional things I have been imbibing, but I have enjoyed them too.)

I was actually quite pleased to see this research - not because I drank a lot during pregnancy, but because I also think it is important for mothers-to-be to be able to relax during pregnancy! Especially with your first, as that can be quite stressful. And if a small glass of wine every now and again helps mum relax then I have no problem with that. With my DS the advice at the time was to limit alcohol intake, so I took the view that if I felt like a small glass of wine once in a while I'd have one and I didn't feel bad about it. Most of the time I didn't want one. I am extremely lucky to have a beautiful, bright little boy and I have no regrets about drinking. In the four years since DS was born I have seen the advice on this go full circle, as well as the advice about weaning before 6 months and it gets rather frustrating as a mum when you try hard to stick to the advice you are given and then a year down the line they change it anyway!! Everybody forgets about the mothers when it comes to these things. Grr.

elizaregina I must ask her! She should have seen the consultant by now...

MsElizaDay

This thread has made me have a proper chuckle.

I've been dying to ask someone why you can't use alcohol as pain relief during labour? I know this sounds potentially ridiculous but what harm can be done but having the odd shot of vodka just to mum the pain of it all?

Probably I am being totally ignorant as there's not a scientific bone in my body but I am genuinely intrigued?

Msfickle : your baby is still attached to you during labour, so using alcohol in sufficient quantities to provide any pain relief would be very bad for the baby!

And luckily, these days there are far more effective pain-relief drugs (which also don't have all the side effects of alcohol)... which is why you don't get alcohol for pain relief during normal operations either these days

As much as this may offend posters , (sorry in advance)

I think this is a dodgy door to open, you would be surprised how many women old and young still drink too much in pregnancy.
I do think 'abstain for 9 months to ensure you have put your child's heath first' Is a better message tbh. just my opinion.

You're not being judgmental about individuals' drinking choices, just supporting the government approach to advice.

The problem is that it's arguable that preaching total abstention when the evidence indicates that isn't necessary is a very flawed and counterproductive way of trying to influence behaviour.

The thing is Lastnerve you could just as well apply that argument to anything that some people do too much of that there isn't any proof is harmful in moderation. It isn't that your view is offensive, just that there's no scientific basis for it.

You don't actually know that moderate alcohol consumption in pregnancy is harmful, because nobody does. It might even be the case that moderate consumption is healthier, for all we know: we've not even settled whether that's the case or not for non-pregnant adults yet. So you're simply not in any place to make that call, even if you're a world expert on maternal drinking.

This means you're advocating lying to women. The message you want to give suggests that abstention ensures a child's health is put first, when there's no way you can possibly know that. Your suggestion relies on unsupported assumptions. You're exactly right to say it's just your opinion- fine, you're entitled to that, but NHS guidance needs to be based on more. Otherwise they're just making it up, and as Brugmansia points out, that makes people less likely to pay any attention. The fact that I was lied to and told there's no safe level makes me less likely to trust any NHS advice I am ever given about alcohol consumption again.

betty - I didn't need to drink, I wanted to. There is a difference.

I loathe people who are so preachy and holier than thou. You have done far more damage to yourself, your body and your long term health with your 15 years of smoking than I did having a glass or two of wine a week throughout my pregnancies.

lastnerve - I am an intelligent person, I can work out how much a unit is and how often to drink one, I don't need to be told to abstain incase I drink too much

Alibaba I'm not saying your are not but there many women I have met who are both too stupid and selfish to drink at a reasonable amount and take a mile from an inch.

I work with disabled adults and a large proportion have fetal alcohol syndrome so my opinion is slightly biased, after seeing that on a daily basis there is no way in hell I could have taken that risk.

Which is fine, but the thing is that you don't actually know it's a risk. Your view is totally understandable, but it's not a logical one. It's based on an unverified assumption.

For all those who think that pregnant women shouldn't drink because it's a risk, presumably you're now aware that you have no scientific basis for that view. So with that in mind, I'd like to ask:

1. Do you also apply this principle to other things that there's no evidence are risky?
2. If not, why not? Why is moderate alcohol consumption different?

To clarify above, I'm only asking women who think pregnant women shouldn't drink moderately, not people who made the decision to abstain themselves and don't have a view on what others should do. I'm a pregnant teetotaller myself so far be it from me to judge!

lastnerve - there is no risk of a baby having FAS if their mother has drunk a moderate amount throughout pregnancy.

I agree but it does have to be moderate that's the problem.

Oh... Makes sense. Still alcohol would be alot more fun than an epidural!

Still, imagine waking up the day after having a baby with a hangover as well... Not so fun

Interesting thread. Slightly different argument but I get hacked off by the general food and drink advice given to pregnant women from the perspective of the anxiety it causes - because unlike some other research, it is known that stress/cortisol levels directly affect the baby.

How many threads have we all seen by worried mums; I just walked past a cat should i get tested for toxoplasmosis; just eaten some Brie or a Mr Whippy, i must have listeria. I don't mean to sound unsympathetic as people just want to do their best. Everything comes with a risk, it's just where on the spectrum it sits for me.

All in moderation :)

When my mum was pregnant with me (1960's) she had terrible nausea helped only by Babycham (bearing in mind my mum is normally teetotal). She went to the doctor to ask if it was ok. He said he didn't think it would do any harm but he did have another medicine she could try. She decided to stick with the Babycham and the doctor never did get to write that prescription for Thalidomide....
Personally I was drunk, stoned and fell down the stairs in the early weeks of my first pregnancy as I didn't know about it at the time. All the way through I drank wine moderately, ate peanuts and soft cheeses. My 16 year old now is a climbing champion and is studying for 14 GCSEs, all predicted A/A*. The thing me and my mum did have in common was that we were both in our early 20's when we got pregnant. I suspect this has more bearing on the robustness of our pregnancies than anything else.

It must have been a man who made the Guidelines of recommending no drinking at all during pregnan, so they can have countless 'taxis' home. Can your average man go 9 months without having one drink? Especially, with every excuse for a bbq/party/boys night/football match occurring this month then next with the Olympic s(even thoughthey don't like athetics- except women beach volley ball!)

I admit I had one small wine at a wedding in April. Of course, I felt guilty (my midwife made sure that I felt worse afterwards when I was stupid enough to tell her) Could I have got through the wedding day without the wine? Probably, but felt a little of a wet blanket with everyone else steaming drunk around me. The 125ml glass made me feel 'normal' and a little more relaxed.

Normally, drink/alcohol doesnt,'t bother me. Can take it or leave it. But during preganacy, the thing of cannot have it makes wanting it worse! The social gatherings that occur in there ernest whilst I am pregnant make it worse. Non alcholic wine /larger is not the same.

Clear guidelines should be given by which every mid wife, doctor, the media is saying the same thing would be of help. Rather than so many mixed messages. One glass of wine once a week - ok or not.