Danish research on drinking alcohol in pregnancy

[OneTwoOrThree]

BBC Article

Interesting, and hopefully of some comfort to those who have drunk a lot bit before they knew they were pregnant, and those who enjoy the occasional large medium glass of wine.

herrena

did your friend sort out her birth at reading? sorry to hi jack op.

I agree with other - in moderation its not harmful but I think the gov stresses no - because of the silly minoirty who do gulp in pregnany....i belive in the states there is more info on this subject and alot of adopters have un wittingly adopted babies with Afs.

we also have an alchol crisis in the country.

personally so far i have had 3 glasses of wine and 4 half shandies over 20 weeks.

yes Bue but then its at the MWs discretion to decide if you are likely to missinterpret "moderate". I have never been advised to obstain by a midwife, because my normal drinking habits are very occassional. If someone came in and said "oh you know a glass or two after a bad day at work and at the weekend" I'ld think hmmmm drinks alone at home very regularly.. best advise none then they'll at least cut down!

"we also have an alchol crisis in the country"
and there is a normalised acceptable type of alcoholism here, the ones that have lots of wine or posh cider in their nice houses..

If you NEED to open a bottle to unwind from work, then really a total break is advisable, pregnant or not!

I have had a couple of half shandies, very light ones really, they were just the ticket to go with my pork scratchings

Since i have had my son, over 4 years ago i can count on both hands how many alcoholic drinks i have had, and still have a few fingers spare for sticking up at that twat, i really hate, hate how every other person feels they have a right to declare what women do with their bodies, pregnant or not. grrrrrr.

I've resisted saying to much on this thread because every time I type something, it just sounds so judgey, no matter which way I type it :( But not about anyone's choices on this thread - but just for debate:

It's all a personal choice, and I'm not saying anyone shouldn't be able to decide what they do with their own bodies.

But on a certain level - why can't a person go without a drink for 9 months? I'm with monkeymoma on this - there is an acceptable level of drinking in this country that doesn't sit well with me. And believe me - I am no teetotal angel!

Saying it doesn't do harm isn't the same as doing you good. If a person needs a glass of wine to calm anxiety levels, there's an issue there. Because we humans should not need a glass of wine to reduce stress. I'm not saying it's wrong a person has a glass of wine - but I am saying no one should need it, physiologically speaking.

Again it brings me back to smoking - I smoked for 15 years, and quit two months before I got pregnant. Smoking has now become unacceptable in this country but say if it wasn't - say if researchers said: you can have two cigarettes a week, it won't do you any harm. Still no way in hell would I have those two "allowed" cigarettes a week.

well that's it bettybat, its the people who find the no alcohol thing difficult who NEED to have a break

I've always told my MWs that I have no prob going without alcohol, but do stuggle with coffee, so they say I can have some alcohol and help me to give up coffee. I know that SOME coffee is allowed, but the fact that I NEED it and struggle with cutting down suggests that actually I need to detox from it completely!

I gave up smoking the moment I found out I was pregnant, I'm lucky I have no problem with it, I could also not have a drink for more than 9 months, I have gone longer than that before, however, it is my right to decide what I want to eat and drink, especially if I have taken time to research the risks, I have concluded by myself as a grown woman that a small very weak shandy at Christmas time and on a nice sunny day is not a problem, it's what I fancied, the taste of it, not the sensation of getting rat arsed.

If a person feels they can't relax without a drink, pregnant or not, then yes that's worrying. As the daughter of an alcoholic I'm perhaps over-sensitive, but I'd be frightened if I ever felt like that.

However, that and the cultural attitudes to drinking are entirely different issues from moderate consumption during pregnancy. A glass of wine a night would take a person over the moderate threshold, unless they were very small glasses. As I understand it, there's scientific agreement that 14 units a week would be too high during pregnancy. So Bettybat, the issue is why exactly a person should go without alcohol entirely for 9 months, when there is no reason whatsoever for them to do so. We're talking about a couple of units a week. If people want to 'play safe' and not drink even that, fine. But it's no more logical than avoiding anything else that there's no medical evidence a pregnant woman needs to avoid. And it's not like we've achieved consensus on whether moderate consumption is healthier than total abstention for non-pregnant adults either.

Lest anyone should think me biased, I've gone right off alcohol so haven't drunk since finding out I'm pregnant, and before that I used to binge drink on cheap cider occasionally rather than have a glass of good red wine for my heart.

Can I correct some slightly misleading information given on this thread. When you drink alcohol, the alcohol is indead absorbed into your bloodstream. However your blood does not wander aimlessly about your body in any direction. the blood vessels around your intestine feed into your liver first. So your liver gets a first go at detoxifying anything you eat and drink before any potential toxins circulate around your body. It is called first pass metabolism. Of course, the blood does not stop in the liver and wait until it is all cleaned so some of the blood coming out the other side of the liver will still contain some alcohol.

To put it another way, if you were to inject a unit of vodka into a vein in your arm (so missing the first pass metabolism) you would be way, way more drunk than you would be from drinking a unit of vodka.

monkeymoma like you, I have not really touched alcohol this pregnancy. I had a couple of small half-glasses of wine while on holiday in Italy. However I cannot seem to manage without my daily dose of caffeine. In my case it is from Coke.

iwantbabies Of course I would not put alcohol in my babies bottle. However when DD was 8 weeks old she was put on a medicine that did contain alcohol, about the same % as wine. This medicine was essential for her and cannot be made without the alcohol. Fortunately she only needed about 6ml each day. This has done her no harm.

well my EBM was a different colour if I'ld had a drink, so I always pumped and dumped if I'ld had a drink (even though the advise was that there was no need) so I personally would wonder about the amts that go to the baby since it certainly had a tangible effect on my breast milk

I completely agree that there is a serious issue with overdrinking in this country. I come from abroad and the amount of drinking done here is shocking by comparison. Pub culture has a lot to answer for. There are certainly also people for whom 'moderate' will be misinterpreted, but the answer to that is not to 'punish' all pregnant women because of the actions of the few.

But that's a separate issue - this is really about there being no scientific evidence of harm from defined moderate drinking. People always argue, well why can't women just not drink for 9 months - what is the big deal? Because the evidence now consistently shows that there is no reason to not drink for 9 months! Flangelina has pointed out that it's as arbitary as saying why can't women go without a biscuit for 9 months? Well they could, but life wouldn't be much fun and their baby wouldn't be any better off!

but the research based advice about how much is okay IS given to women who the MWs don't have reason to believe will take it as a licence to carry on over-drinking!

and while information about what a unit is is widely available, people still commonly underestimate how many units they are having!

Saying it doesn't do harm isn't the same as doing you good. If a person needs a glass of wine to calm anxiety levels, there's an issue there

Well I NEEDED a GnT yesterday, first alcohol Id had in 3 weeks, and it was 1.

Whats the big deal?

"Playing a bit of devils advocate here but would you put a small amount of alcohol in your baby's bottle when they're born?"

I don't feed my babies with bottles when they're born.

But I do put small amounts of alcohol in my breasts.

HTH :)

Athinginyourlife

Snap!

Saying it doesn't do harm isn't the same as doing you good

Well you could say that about chocolate or cake, so I'm not sure what the point is here, bettybat?

I don't really understand the midwife thing, you don't see a midwife til you're quite far along do you?

NHS choices has this to say:

"The Department of Health recommends that you avoid drinking alcohol if you?re pregnant.
You should also avoid drinking alcohol if you?re trying for a baby or planning to do so, as many women don?t realise they?re pregnant until some weeks into their pregnancy. .
The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) advises women who are pregnant to avoid alcohol in the first three months in particular, because of the increased risk of miscarriage.
If you do choose to drink, to minimise the risk to your unborn baby, you should not drink more than 1-2 units of alcohol once or twice a week. You should not get drunk and avoid binge drinking. For women, binge drinking means drinking more than six units of alcohol a day."

I love this thread, now if the taste of alcohol didn't make me feel like puking right now I'd love to have my allowed unit or two a week.

I'm not sure that's the case monkeymoma. The evidence based advice wasn't given to me or to anyone I know. If you'll forgive me a bit of ego, I think I come off as someone who can be trusted with facts. Yet I was lied to, and I flatter myself I'm as capable of understanding the data as any of the professionals I've seen during my pregnancy. And while people commonly underestimate how many units they have, the way to tackle this is by telling them what a unit is. Not to lie.

SardineQueen I first saw a midwife at my booking in appointment during the 8th week, so pretty early. Thought that was normal?

Bue's biscuit analogy is perfect.

A lot of these 'health' guidelines are more about controlling the behaviour of the masses. And the plebs have caught on to, hence disbelief or ignoring of the 'advice', which then has to become more stringent to get anyone to pay attention.

I had a my "weekily" glass of wine, as it was called by the barman and DD is perfect with no hint of FSA. My doctor friend seemed to think it was okay to consume alcohol whilst pregnant as she had a "daily" instead.

Great thread.

Confession time: I am one of those people who has 'nice wine' in the house and normally I drink a glass most nights. Not always, but that would be balanced out by the odd days I have more than one glass.

I therefore decided not to drink at all until at least 12 weeks pg - to just say blanket No is easier than figuring out what I can and can't have. The first few days were quite hard, because it was part of my relaxation routine of an evening, but I bought some posh ginger beer to have instead and I haven't missed it at all since.

I do think though that there are some highly political motivations to control women, pregnancy and alcohol. I was cheering on Flangelina's denouncement of the RCOG bloke!

The point being, cakebump, that you can easily kid yourself about these things. Not you personally, but you know...

Look, it's your body, your baby, your choices. I intensely dislike our culture towards alcohol - and it's not even completely about being pregnant, or potential harm. I think that's the bigger issue...for me.

There's no way for me to say what I really think without sounding incredibly judgmental, so it's pointless me trying to :) Except that - the argument about - well why shouldn't we be able to just enjoy a glass of wine just doesn't fly, not for me. I'm still stuck on - if you're only allowed a paltry amount, why are you clinging onto that? But it's not actually up to me to ask that, or demand an answer from anyone about why they want a drink!

if you're only allowed a paltry amount
and who is doing the allowing bit?

the DofH should give info which enables ME to decide what I will consume and feed my baby not give me permission to eat or drink.

Stupid societal outlook towards women's bodies combined with silly attitudes towards alcohol making way for nonsensical nannying.

If you can't think that a damaged liver might not be great for your unborn child then your child has far more to worry about than afs when it is born and that mum needs more help than just being told not to drink.

the rest of us are just fine.

bettybat, why do you keep assuming that women are clinging to be being able to drink a small amount and that it's a need? Need and wanting something or desiring it aren't the same thing.

Of course some people do rely on alcohol, and I'm sure lots would agree that one of the reasons they drink sometimes is to relax or deal with stress and other problems. that isn't the sole reason for lots of people.

Personally, I'm glad that the odd glass of wine is ok because I really like wine. I like the taste and sensory experience of drinking it and there isn't anything non-alcoholic that is comparable. Dp and friends will still be drinking nice wine while I'm pg so from time to time I will enjoy being able to have a glass rather than just listen to them telling me how lovely a particular wine is.

If there was evidence that genuinely indicated that no alcohol in pregnancy was best and there was a clear, even if very low, risk with even 1-2 units once in a while then I would have no problem stopping completely.

with the general drinking culture points, it has crossed my mind that the abstention message is part of the same thing, not an antidote to it. It's based on the same approach to alcohol, that the only reason for drinking is for the narcotic effect and it has to be all or nothing.

I'm not sure this will ever get resolved. It's very hard for any one to research this conclusively, short of getting, say, 3000 freshly pregnant women, dividing them into groups, imprisoning them and accurately monitoring alcohol consumption over their pregnancy. Can't see anyone getting that one past the ethics board.

At the moment, the research relies on respondant's honesty and accurate recall, which researchers have shown to be dodgy (someone actually did a study about studies on social issues and showed that respondants tended to answer how they thought they should rather than completely honestly, even when the survey was anonymous). Underreporting is likely because of the judgemental factor.

All we really know conclusively is that heavy drinking (5+ units per day, throughout pregnancy) is extremely likely to result in some degree of FAS.