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Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

My Ob/Gyn admitted is is indeed true that most female Ob/Gyns opt for elective c setcion!

87 replies

cherrysodalover · 08/10/2011 00:55

So having had a c section first time round(baby over 10 pounds- small pelvic opening) I assumed I would automatically get a c section.
Now I can have one if I want but am also being offered normal delivery as an option-we can scan to see how big baby is in the days pre due date- this can be 1 pound out though.
So I asked my female Ob/Gyn whether it is true that most Ob/Gyn's choose elective c sections and she admitted yes as do most urologists.
I asked her why she thought they did this knowing the slow recovery time and she said it is as they see what happens when things go wrong and so weigh up the disadvantages of a planned c section against this possible outcome which of course is far worse than the week of healing after major surgery- she also mentioned your pelvic muscles are less likely to be badly damaged by a c section.

I have to say it kind of shocked me- the women involved in helping people post birth who have problems choose surgery over natural.

It made me think maybe the midwives don't see this which is why so many are so anti c section- they may see women with pereneums damaged but they do not deal with them going back sometimes for many years trying to get the issues caused by this resolved?

And mmm yes it is making me sway towards having a second c section.
Anyway it really is food for thought isn't it?

OP posts:
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Jacksmania · 09/10/2011 14:53

Where in the world did you get the idea that no records of maternal mortality are kept in the U.S.? What a ridiculously uninformed thing to say.
They may not be published, but you can bet they're kept.

cherrysodalover · 09/10/2011 16:20

But why is there this big difference in my and my friends' experience here compared to theuk?why do so many women report unpleasant experiences via the Nhs.it cannot be a coincidence that 9of my 10 friends had to some degree traumatic experiences whilst here not one person I have met has reported an unpleasant birth in the states.my aftercare was fantastic.the nurses were so kind to me.so what is going on in the Nhs that is causing people to report such negative experiences?the one time I was in hospital in London was dreadful.the nurses did not come when I rang the bell after abdominal surgery. The toilets and showers were sprayed with excrement.I could not get out fast enough.the hospitals here are so clean but it is the nurses here that treat you so well that really strikes me as in shocking contrast to the Nhs.

OP posts:
motherinferior · 09/10/2011 16:25

Can I suggest that instead of asserting that no rates are kept, you google 'maternal mortality rates in the US'?

I came up with this

this

and this

all of which look fairly reputable...

motherinferior · 09/10/2011 16:26

... and point to a considerably higher rate of maternal mortality in the US...

Iggly · 09/10/2011 16:28

I think stats are kept of maternal death rates on the US.

America has an incredibly medicalised approach to birth - no midwife led units for one thing. Like it or not, interventions such as epidurals lead to forceps/ventouse and episiotomies which cause damage to pelvic floors.

The environment in which you give birth makes a difference to the outcome. So given that "natural" deliveries aren't really common in America, no wonder there are so many c-sections (how slicing open your stomach and yanking a baby out can be better than a decent VB, I dont know). C-sections shouldn't be taken lightly.

thefirstMrsDeVeerie · 09/10/2011 16:29

I know its a bit off tangent but when I worked in A&E [non clinical role] I saw so many early miscarraiges it felt like that it was pretty much inevitable that my pg would end that way.

I know that they are common and I have had one since but seeing that day in and day out kind of skews your thinking.

As a pp pointed out Obs dont see a lot of 'easy' births. Do you think this may be why so many apparently opt for CS?

thefirstMrsDeVeerie · 09/10/2011 16:32

So what is this thread really about then?

The evils of the communist NHS v the US system?

Do me a favour. Your friends has a wonderful time because they could afford it.

What a about the thousands of women who get no antenatal care at all?

cherrysodalover · 09/10/2011 21:50

Look it is a valid observation- I hear no bad stories of birth here but plenty from the UK and I am genuinely wondering what is going on aside from my original point that the specialists here choose c section.

Why have so many of my friends had such negative experiences and could not wait to get out of hospital?

It is all very well saying hospitals are private here but we pay about 1500 pounds a year in health insurance which I suspect is less than our national insurance payments used to be in the UK- so the NHS is getting its money just like a private hospital so why are so many mothers reporting bad experiences?

I really am genuinely interested in this difference I have experienced first hand having encountered both systems.

In fact my ob/gyn was very encouraging on trying for a vbac- I questioned her as to this as at my previous c section I was told I would be an automatic c section.She said the practice at the hospital/company which actually is like a very well run NHS and much cheaper than many alternative health insurance packages, is to always aim for a vaginal delivery.This was why I asked her if the stat about c sections for ob/Gyns is true.She confirmed it is.

OP posts:
Iggly · 09/10/2011 22:04

You may not have heard bad birth stories - that doesn't mean there aren't any. You'd have to speak to a wider variety of people to get a better idea of what's going on.

I know mums who've had wonderful home births, wonderful c-sections, horrific c-sections and hospital births.

Plus our national insurance doesn't equate to NHS funding so no point confusing that with health insurance.

Iggly · 09/10/2011 22:10

interesting article although 3 years old.

cherrysodalover · 10/10/2011 00:31

Thanks Iggly- interesting article.
Shocking less than 50% of women have a labour and birth free of intervention.
I guess I too am influenced by my experiences- a friend was involved with working with a community in Africa where so many young women are damaged during birth and unable to get surgery to repair their perineums-they are totally ostracised from the village and must live on the outskirts alone with their child because they cannot control their incontinence.So I have no romantic illusions about birth- I know that there is a good chance that something is going to get ripped or worse- your child can be deprived of oxygen or stillborn.
I have never forgotten that child I worked with 20 years ago who had cerebral palsey caused by birth- I remember thinking then that I would do anything to avoid my child have this happen just through the process of being born and through luck I guess I have got my desire.I know your chance of this happening is lower than it happening but the chance is there and I do think our culture promotes this idea of the natural romantic birth that is simply not going to be a reality for many.

OP posts:
Iggly · 10/10/2011 07:46

Yes of course bad things can happen during a vaginal birth. Bad things can also happen during a c-section so it would be foolish to think that it is the safe option.

I believe that our bodies are designed to give birth provided there are no complicating factors and the environment in which a woman gives birth is right for her. Culturally we set ourselves up to fail with unrealistic images of failure and underplay the fact that most women are fine giving birth vaginally.

Your own personal experience colours your view, as does mine. My mum had 6 kids all fine. Three were born at home, three at hospital. She was always adamant that the hospital births were the worse because she didn't feel in control and was told what to do. That's the problem with some medical professionals, they like to be in control because they think they know the outcome yet with something like giving birth, they'd be wise to listen to a mums instinct (I've heard anecdotes of mums knowing something was wrong etc etc or their urges to push being overridden when they houldnt have been been). They should be working with mums not scaring them into thinking they'll all end up with 4th degree tears, incontinence and at worse damage to their babies.

MoonFaceMamaaaaargh · 10/10/2011 14:14

went back to try and check what i'd read re maternal mortality in the states and i have miss remembered, sorry...

I think what i was thinking of is that the records are so crap as to be useless (so no shame there then Hmm ). With the CDC (who's job it is to collect the data) estimating under reporting means that deaths may actually be between 1.3 and 3 times greater than figures suggest. And less than half of states having reviews of maternal morbidity.

Sorry about the confusion...must do better Blush

And cherry i would venture into dangerous territory by suggesting perhaps your friends have had good experiences because few of them are afro-american or hispanic. These groups have maternal mortality rates four times and seventy percent higher than national average respectivly, indicating great discrepancies in care recieved by different groups. (of course these figures will also be underestimates baring in mind the information above)

AlpinePony · 10/10/2011 16:58

It is well documented that the infants who die during childbirth in the us are far more likely to be born of mothers without insurance, and therefore without adequate ante-natal care. Is put money on the majority of dying mothers also being within that group. The NHS shows similar static amongst those who eschew care.

From my own peers I have been shocked and saddened to learn this week that one has been left incontinent, and she classifies her birth a success.

carriedababi · 10/10/2011 17:04

same reason alot of midwife encourage vaginal births, as there not the ones left to pick up the pieces with the long term damage.
after sustaining serious birth injuries such as 4th degree tears etc

quietlyafraid · 10/10/2011 17:53

I'm increasingly convinced that the whole c-section v natural birth debate is currently being driven by cultural and political reasons rather than necessarily medical reasons.

A lot of NHS Trust are in the process of banning elective c-sections by maternal request on the grounds of costs. Its supported by a lot of people because there is a belief that the number of c-section is on the rise because loads of women are 'too posh to push'. The reality is that the rise is being driven by more overweight women and women over 35 having children rather than a lifestyle choice. I think maternal requests only account for no more than 2% (and many of those are questionable about whether you could truly put them down to lifestyle choice over mental health considerations) And in addition to this political pressure is driving a push towards home births as an option rather than hospital births despite The Netherlands, where it is the norm, having one of the highest perinatal death rates in Europe. It is good that is a move to give women more choice by encouraging home births, but the irony is that one method which is more expensive and more risky is acceptable whereas the other is unacceptable.

And here's the crunch. The cost of c-sections v vaginal births is being used too much by the NHS as its a red herring. It doesn't take into account complications, short term or long term and it doesn't take into account any care that might arise from mental health needs. For example there is evidence to suggest that a woman forced to undergo a vaginal birth against her will, is more likely to suffer PSTD and/or PND. She's also more likely to need intervention in the first place, if her motivation for an elective c-section is fear.

I also find it very interesting that in other parts of the world (China, Iran, Brazil) there is a move towards c-sections in the middle class. If you can afford it, you have a c-section. Its seen not only as acceptable but preferable. It is culturally seen as safer and better (despite even in private clinics, the level of care not being as good as the UK). In Iran, natural child birth is increasing seen as barbaric, uncivilised and questions 'why go through the pain' of labour if a modern alternative is available. Of course, the private clinics also make more money...

And then, when you start looking at the stats for c-section v natural births, a lot of the data is misleading. Common flaws are electives lumped with emergencies which are riskier, reasons for electives not properly recorded (electives are generally done for medical reasons so the women involved are higher risk than women who actively choose a c-section), studies comparing outcomes that are based on studies outside EU medical standards etc etc. Which makes you really question the quality of the information we are all given about vaginal births and the level of risks involved.

The fact that Obs have been shown in several studies in the UK and US to opt for a c-section tells an untold story. Yes, they have been more exposed to bad births, but they are also more aware of the risks all around and are in a position where they are able to make an active and informed choice. Obs are also in a more powerful position to fight their corner and get the birth they wish - either through knowing their rights, being deemed to fully understand the risks that 'normal people' might not or just knowing the right colleague. For the majority of women that kind of choice just isn't an option and is frowned on by midwifes and other women. Especially given the pressure that the NHS is putting on departments to cut the number of c-sections.

Female Obs may well be making a good decision based on their personal circumstances. They may feel that if the chance of them having an emergency c-section after attempting a natural birth is high enough then opting for the lower risk elective as a precaution may be better. Its worth remembering here that as a general rule, female doctors will tend to have children at an older age than the general population, because they study and qualify first - they are therefore more likely to fall into the higher risk over 35 group too.

Personally I favour a much more informed and honest debate on the subject, that isn't dominated by agendas of the tabloid press and natural birth advocates. I'd like to see better research and more emphasis on trying to give women a better idea of the pros and cons on an individual basis based on their circumstances and their needs rather than a generalised opinion that natural birth is simply better. We need to stop the tragedy of women feeling they have some how failed for whatever reason - which culturally seems to be the outcome from all this pressure. Both c-sections and natural births have their place in this day and age.

The truth is, that natural birth will be the best option for the majority of women but not for all. The judgements and in some cases, blind ignorance and bigotry displayed by some don't help anyone. I think we do need to be more aware of who is driving the debate and what their agenda is and to be more aware of what research is really showing and just how reliable it is (and indeed whether more needs to be done).

The ironic reality is that women across the board, will almost universally put the perceived risk to their child before the perceived risk to themselves, rather than make a lifestyle choice. Studies prove this. Which is why empowering women with the best possible information and ability to make a choice is just so important. It shouldn't simply be placed in the hands of budget decision makers or profit makers or those with their own political agenda. Its putting the individual into the equation rather than the mass production line of babies.

/rant

kickingking · 10/10/2011 17:56

My ob has had three elcs. But I'm confused as to how they would get them, if there were no medical indications - do they pay for them to be done privately??

kickingking · 10/10/2011 18:09

Sorry, should add that I'm in the UK

Ormirian · 10/10/2011 18:10

I am not sure that 'most' is a statistically accurate definition.

thejaffacakesareonme · 10/10/2011 19:00

Kicking - an elcs could be offered for medical reasons which don't require an emcs. For example, the first baby could have been a footling breech.

carriedababi · 10/10/2011 19:07

queitlyafraid, what an excellent post

kickingking · 10/10/2011 19:21

I know - what I mean is, surely 'most' obs expecting a first baby don't all have breech babies, placenta previa, very large babies, etc. How do 'most' of them get elcs?

kitya · 10/10/2011 19:28

One thing Im curious about is, health insurance in the States. Does it automatically cover births or do you have to have a separate "womens" one? I dont know how true to life that US One Born Every Minute was but it made me cringe. It was shameful the way the funky pretend midwife used to tell the mothers practically how they needed to have an epidural because it would be like passing a melon without pain relief. How they were put on the bed and never moved again whilst the staff all sat around the desk eating and watching the mother's progress on the screen.

BTW all the midwives I know have opted for VB where possible. Doctors? not so many.

thejaffacakesareonme · 10/10/2011 19:30

I don't know. It would seem so unfair if they get them when other women in identical circumstances are refused.

kitya · 10/10/2011 19:35

I dont know about that, to be honest.