22 weeks pregnant and he's breech...

[TurtlesAreRetroRight]

I know, I know. Plenty of time to move, they're really active at this stage apparently.

Except he isn't.

I get a lot of movement but all kicks are really, really low and have been for weeks. He doesn't move to any other position and is resolutely breech at all times. I can feel his head by my ribs.

It's silly to be so worried I know but dd was head down from the moment it was possible to move and she never, ever moved from that position. Turned out she was stupidly stuck and after a long and unproductive labour, I had an emcs.

I've been struggling with vbac vs elcs from the moment of the pink line and at the back of my mind I've always thought what if my pelvis is weird and I make my dc get stuck.

I'm so bloody worried he's stuck in a breech position and I'll just have another cs anyway.

You're right...plenty of time!! Babies move all the time!

I know, as I said. But dd didn't move from head down and was engaged very early (she was actually stuck). And this one hasn't moved position either.

I'm worried he's stuck. I don't have babies that change position from very early it seems. And I know it's pathetic to be so worried when many babies are breech at this stage. But I have serious ishooooos over giving birth. I wish I could enjoy being pregnant instead of the constant tears/panic.

DS2 was transverse at 40 and half weeks (prior to this had been in perfect position for months).

He still managed to turn just in time - they were going to c section me that afternoon! LOL

Gosh I'm nearly ninteen weeks here and can't even feel any proper kicks yet!

Do not panic. He he has plenty of time to turn.

He is only tiny and no where near engaging in your pelvis yet. Still turning cirlces without you knowing.

No.6 was breech for months and i was booked for a c section. He turned at 39 and half weeks. I had no idea he had turned either! I was so surprised when i went in to hospital and they scanned me and said he had turned.

That was a 9lb baby turing without me knowing. I had plenty of babies before and knew what i was feeling when the spun round. He still fooled me.

I bet he is turning and you just don't know it.

I had dd3, 13 weeks ago, she was breech until 36 weeks, dd2 was breech until 35 weeks, I felt dd2 move, not the most comfortable of times . I didn't feel dd3 move at all, I was scanned to see what was the best way forward and she had turned- she was well over 8lbs . I never thought dd3 moved as much as the others in general. Good luck.

You're all very good and sensible and lovely. And your logic and good advice is largely wasted on me.

He isn't moving around from a breech position, this much I know. He's v active, been able to feel him since around 14/15 weeks and he is steadfastly stamping very low down and I can physically feel his head tucked up by my rib cage, slightly to the right. His arms are currently tickling somewhere in the middle. Midwife confirmed this week, he's exactly where I suspected. All the reassurances of 'they change position all the time' aren't helping precisely because he isn't.

They won't scan me again because my neurotic episodes worries about my pelvis are based on PTSD and resulting panic, not on any real, empirical knowledge of dd's position being anything other than luck.

This baby was always breech, I was scanned fornightly from fairly early on, which confirmed she was always breech. All my other DC had always been head down from the start and stayed that way until birth. Also all engaged early.

Then at my 31 week scan she was head down. I hadn't expected it at all, I just had a feeling she was going to stay breech. I am 33 + 4 and she is still head down. So it seems she knew what to do.

Most babies do turn head down, only a small percentage stay breech at birth. A friend even had her baby turned by ECV whilst in labour at 40 weeks and in theatre and gave birth vaginally.

I'm with you! DS (2nd dc ) was noted head down by 3 more than middle aged midwives. I swear he never moved. Never! He tried several times btw which always made me violently sick and have mini contractions. Basically he was stuck and stayed stuck.
Only found out he was breech due to diabetes scan (didn't have it). That was 32 wks. Prior to this I bad been prodding his little head thinkng it was his bum!
Cue my disbelief over what midwives were feeling.
Anyway consultant books ELCS for 39 weeks. I told him baby would be here before then (no no he says !) and indeed ds put me in labour at 38+2
Point of this is that I absolutely knew with total mothers gut instinct that he was staying breech and coming early.
So I just accepted the ELCS and patted his head instead.

Btw I had back to back labour 1st time failure to progress and she was ventoused out in a hurry! So it's poss your womb is having none of it like mine!!

I had such dreadful heartburn I just could not do the whole upside down spinning babies gubbins. Plus spd put a halt to it too.
Just accept it if you can

Oh and fwiw I reckon the whole breech statistics is way out! I know double the amount of mothers who had breech presentation at term than I do normal ones
It's our western lifestyle doing it.

DD was head down all the way (scans/examinations) - I never tried ECV as was having ELCS anyway but then she turned at 35 weeks - felt absolutely horrible at the time but could then breathe/digest food etc!

I'm totally with you Turtles!

DC1 was head down at 20 wk scan and stayed there for every exam (frequent as my sister was training to be a dr at the time so she kept practising on me!)

DC2 was transverse at 20 wk scan and stayed there until 37+6 when she moved as we arrived at the hosp for my section preop assessment!

DC3 was breech at 20 wk scan and stayed there. He was unconfirmed for ages as they couldn't do exams due to spd pain but scanned at 36wks. Had ecv at 37 wks, induced (due to spd) at 38wks.

This one (30+2) is breech (not confirmed by MW yet as exams are again painful due to spd). So everyone saying 'there's plenty of time' falls on deaf ears here too. It's been lying the same way the whole time and if I lie on my L side in bed, his spine swings around to the L but as soon as I stand he swings back to the R again!

I'm convinced it will stay breech as I have to wear a support belt for the spd which tightens your pelvis to the extent that baby doesn't have much room to turn (confirmed by physio).

TBH, I'm not sure that I can cope with another roudn of ecv. It was horribly painful last time due to the spd - I had to have morphine which was not ideal either! Also physio said that the damage to my back from him being back to back is linked as babies who have been persistently breech then turned via ecv are more likely to be malpositioned for birth (there is a RCOG paper on ecv to support this).

So, yes, I stick my fingers in my ears and go 'lalalala' whenever anyone starts about there being plenty of time!

Buttonmoon your situation makes mine crystal clear! I never linked wearing a support belt to his breech presentation but it makes perfect sense!
I was in a belt both pregnancies but from 9 weeks with DS. I had to walk to work 3 days a week and DD to preschool everyday in absolute agony! So I used to strap my hips together with the belt all the time.
Mumsnet strikes again!

Thank you for your responses. They're a comforting mix of reassurance that babies do turn and acknowledgment that I'm not utterly mad being sure that my babies don't move positions.

I did have a support belt with dd but not until much later and she had been head down for ages at that point. I've just started with PGP and can't even begin to imagine encouraging him in lots of positions. I certainly won't be bouncing on any balls any time soon.

And if it came to it I wouldn't have ECV. I'd decide between vbac breech (if his position isn't footling) and elcs.

I just can't shake the feeling that I've battled for 4yrs that there's something wrong with me/my pelvis/womb and I'll never push a baby out in the way nature intended.

My dd was breech which wasn't discovered until 39 weeks. It was too late for an ecv so I had a section. With my ds he was breech from the start. I was convinced that he would never turn and was resigned to another cs. He ended up turning by himself at 36 weeks and stayed head down so I ended up havIng the vbac I had wanted.

You still have plenty of time for him to turn and the odds are very much in your favour.

Turtles both ds last time and this one were/are footling breech. I'm utterly convinced (and I was right last time).

So if I can't go through with ecv then I know I'm headed for a section as the risks, whilst small, are too high to risk vd, like you seem to think too.

If that happens, I'll be a bit as I've managed to get 3 out without a scar but quite frankly it won't bother me enough to say no!

sorry to hijack....but how on earth are you ladies able to tell which way your babies are? I'm 32 weeks and I haven't a clue....I get what I think is a bum sticking out by my belly button normally on the right side, and baby gets hiccups which are really low down near my pelvis so I think head is down but how do you know?????

If your baby is a footling breech you know alright! It's feet threaten to come out of fanjo/bottom with every kick.

Personally I can also feel very distinctly a shoulder under my ribs with a head flexed forward under my sternum. Could last time too.

Turtles, you need Spinning Babies .

Get past the Amercan jargon in places and you might be onto a winner - there is some evidence base to what they are suggesting. More than Hopi Ear Candles anyway ...

Also, a lot of babies will only turn when they run out of space and they have to find the most 'ergonomic' position - so, yes, loads of time for that yet, but I realise that rational argument is 'largely wasted on you' - I liked that bit of self-realisation .

I vividely remember v large heads (several babies, not one with many heads, mind) stuck right were I imagine my liver to be, bumping against my ribs and me needing to push them down to be able to bend in the middle .

Get on your hands and knees and start scrubbing skirting boards and he'll soon turn. 18 weeks of scrubbing floors.... Maybe the Swiss Ball sounds more agreeable?

I've been crawling round scrubbing floors, sweeping the carpet with a dustpan and brush, doing inversions etc etc. He is not moving a bit. Which is what dd did, she just sat there. Foolishly, because she was ceph I assumed all was fine when in fact her head was wedged in a persistent OT position and she stayed that way throughout the pregnancy and throughout a 2 day labour. She was eventually hauled out the sunroof and there was a lot of evidence to suggest she'd been stuck for a very long time. She had some muscle damage because of it.

DomesticGoddess, the Spinning Babies website that PacDog recommends is excellent and has a belly mapping page iirc which might help you find out how your baby is lying. I know this boy is footling breech because, to be blunt, he's stamping on my cervix. It's the same horrid zingy nerve pain you get with a very engaged baby except caused by random kicks. His back is along my right side, his shoulder by my ribs and I can feel his head tucked up by my sternum. The midwife confirmed this last week.

It's ridiculous. I've spent 4 years with crippling ptsd and finally I'd got into a frame of mind where I could try and approach another pregnancy with positivity and I just feel like it's all happening again. The practicalities of a cs don't scare me. Been there, done that, it was pretty straightforward and the recovery easy. What hurts is the idea that I might never, ever know what it's like to deliver a baby vaginally, this horrible feeling that there's something wrong with me that means that I can't birth my own babies. And the worry that come September when my big grown up 4yr old girl starts school and I desperately want to be there for her, I'll be post-operative and emotionally screwed up and the unhappiness compounded by not being able to walk my dd into school like I'd planned.

I feel so bloody tearful. I can't sleep. And stupidly, every time he kicks, instead of smiling because he's my baby and it's brilliant, I could cry because he's kicking in the wrong place.

Turtles my heart goes out to you. This is how I felt last time. I'm wearing the belt now but with a sense of guilt as ds, whilst being wedged into my pelvis was also having his feet bent inwards so came out with positional talipes. It was easily corrected but that makes no difference to the guilt.

Sounds like your baby and mine are buddies as mine's lying in exactly the same way. It's difficult to describe to other people (esp friends' OHs) how I know he's footling breech without being blunt though, isn't it?!

I know having a baby vaginally is 'how it's meant to be' but really, it's not all it's cracked up to be. And, even if there is something with your pelvis stopping it from happening, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It means you're damn lucky to be born in the century you were! And I'd lay money on it being bad luck and coincidence rather than there being something wrong with your pelvis.

I know you want to be able to walk your dd to school, but it's not the end of the world and it's not forever. I currently can't sit in bed with ds and have a cuddle and story at bedtime like we used to as I can't sit on his bed (bottom bunk) and sit upright enough to stop baby's shoulder being painfully dug into my ribs. I don't much like that but it's a fact and I have to work around it.

Have a chat to your MW if you have a nice one, or go and see your GP. To me it sounds like you're holding onto the ptsd still and could do with having a proper session (or more) with a professional to help you.

Be gentle with yourself. Birth is a huge event, yes - but it's also a part of the whole experience. In the grand scheme of things it's a small thing, but I do appreciate that you had a horrific time last time and I don't mean to downplay that. But, also, if you have an elcs this time, the post op stuff will probably be a bit better as it will have been a much calmer affair.

Take care

buttonmoon, you're so very lovely. In fact you always are. We tend to follow each other around threads when I'm in my normal name.

I too am struggling to find the polite way to say 'I know he's footling breech because he's doing Riverdance on my cervix'.

I've never been so trapped between what I know is logic and rationality (a healthy baby, the wonders of a medical world that can help me to have a healthy baby, the importance of the bit after the delivery) and the irrational (I'm a complete and utter failure). People keep shrugging at me and saying 'he'll turn, there's time' or 'never mind' and I could cry. Not because of them but because I feel so governed by this. I was a terrible Mum to a newborn. She was fed and clothed and loved and clean and everything she needed to be. But I was so bloody miserable, gripped by nightmares and guilt and I was so unhappy for so many months. But I console myself with the fact that it didn't matter. She was a baby and didn't know. But she's still my baby, just a big, precocious, brilliant one and if I spiral again in September she'll know. I won't be the Mum she deserves. I feel like I have no control over any of this.

I've gone as far as I can with counselling and dealing with the ptsd. I know there's nothing more I could have done with dd. I was at home, in water, upright, pushed in every conceivable position for several hours. I did all the OFP stuff anyway to be on the safe side. She was stuck. I tried, I know I did. But what nobody can tell me is why and they can't eradicate this sure feeling that the same thing will happen again, I will have an unbirthable baby. And it doesn't matter does it? Not in the grand scheme of things? But I always thought I'd give birth one day. I thought it the most natural thing in the world. And it shouldn't matter so much, it shouldn't be robbing me of this lovely time being pregnant (all cervix stomping aside), but I feel so desperately down about it all.

Turtles and button I am nearly 33wks with No 3 and mine is breech too (not sure what kind of breech) but I am feeling exactly the kind of painful kicks etc that you both are.

Turtles my DS (2nd DC) was breech at 38wks and luckily the doc managed to turn him round by external manipulation. Is this not an option for you? I knew he was ready to be born and refused to accept a c/s as I had a home birth booked. Luckily he stayed that way and within 48hrs was born normally at home.

At the mo, the consultant will re-scan at 36wks and if baby is still breech, will scan again at 38wks. If still breech, will attempt to turn round.

But the big picture is that whichever way a baby comes out, they are still as precious as each other.

Aww, go on with you. I didn't know you weren't you at the moment IYSWIM? You realise I shall be eyeing everyone up now wondering if they're you?!

OK, so I'm beginning to understand why you don't want ecv. One of the reasons being (if I'm right) that you don't want to do that and end up having another stuck baby? If I'm right then that's about control. You do have control over this. If you refuse ecv, it is highly likely that (according to NICE terminology) you will be strongly advised not to have a VD, but to opt for an elcs.

TBH, I'm wondering whether you'd be better off opting for this anyway, regardless of position. Would you feel better knowing when and how, from dd's point of view? Also, you are absolutely safe in the knowledge that it can't happen again. It would be impossible.

With the best of intentions in saying this, natural childbirth ain't always so natural! Yes, there are some people who breathe their babies out and ride the wave of each contraction and feel it to be empowering and other such stuff. I never found that (though I am in awe of them). It's messy and bloody hurts. And I have never felt so out of control in my life. And the ecv wasn't much better!

DD1 - 8lb15oz, my best 'birth'
DD2 - 7lb11oz, back to back (I think - they didn't really tell you things like that back then). I had pethidine and when she arrived (finally) navy blue and not breathing I couldn't have cared less I was so off my face
DS1 - 7lb, shortest labour, again, back to back, pure hell. I begged for an epidural for 4 hours (and I know rationally that the reason I didn't get one is some other poor cow was in a worse state than me but that's cold comfort at the time).
DC4 - who knows as yet, but the longer it stays breech, the more I come around to the idea that a section might be the way to go

Of the last three members of my family to give birth, one had emcs for similar reasons to yours, other two both had back to back labours with forceps, pphs, transfusions and prolonged recoveries. One of their dhs said through his tears that it had been 'utterly medieval'. He says if they have another one he wants her to have a section as 'it was ok for her - she could just pass out. I had to stay awake for the whole thing!'

Of course, I appreciate that it's all v well for me to say that etc, but I wondered if it would help to know that it's not all whale music and breathing! I realise that you know some of that anyway from being in labour for 2 days with your DD.

The problem is that although I can talk til I'm blue in the face (which I almost am looking at the length of this post), you feel how you feel. I wish I could give you a big hug.