22 weeks pregnant and he's breech...

[TurtlesAreRetroRight]

I know, I know. Plenty of time to move, they're really active at this stage apparently.

Except he isn't.

I get a lot of movement but all kicks are really, really low and have been for weeks. He doesn't move to any other position and is resolutely breech at all times. I can feel his head by my ribs.

It's silly to be so worried I know but dd was head down from the moment it was possible to move and she never, ever moved from that position. Turned out she was stupidly stuck and after a long and unproductive labour, I had an emcs.

I've been struggling with vbac vs elcs from the moment of the pink line and at the back of my mind I've always thought what if my pelvis is weird and I make my dc get stuck.

I'm so bloody worried he's stuck in a breech position and I'll just have another cs anyway.

turtles, sorry if my post was teaching your granny to suck eggs - you clearly know a thing or 5 about Optimal Foetal Positioning .

I have no idea what to suggest to allow you to 'marry up' your rational thoughts and irrational feelings - it is such a shame that you should feel bad about yourself if you don't have a VB. FWIW, in no particular order, here are my thoughts:

• your body has not failed as it has made 1 (and a half !) beautiful babies.
• whichever way you give birth is the tiniest part of being a mother
• my (v calm, but technically emergency as not planned) CS was a much nicer birthing experience than my 1st very heavily medicated VB

- all of us don't experience 'everything' about making/having/looking after children. Granted, birth is a biggy, but you might enjoy BFing (I didn't) or teach your baby signlanguage (I didn't) or do BLW (I didn't).

I do understand where you are coming from and as button said, there is so little point talking about it as feelings are what they are. I have vague lingering regrets that I never had the waterbirth I really wanted... Stupid, I know, and not in the same league, but there you have it.

It is funny though, how just recently somebody posted quite distressed how they so wanted an elCS after a v traumatic emCS. They did NOT want to aim for a VB at all - really interesting, how similar situations trigger different feelings in different people.

I really hope you end up with a delivery/birth you are happy with - one way or another .

I agree with the two ladies above. My birth last time was 12 hours from when I was 4cm dilated,baby was back to back and I did not enjoy it one bit to tell the truth. I think it's great that some women can share their wonderful natural birth stories but sometimes its just not that way! (in fact maybe quite often!) I think there is some kind of birthing heirachy amongst mums (especially older mums, I'm 31 myself) about who can have the most 'natural' pain free birth. I don't buy that myself, I just take it as it comes - if its another back to back - hell I will have an epidural!!

TBH even if your baby did turn now he would soon turn back again as there is still so much room in there to move around. :)

PacificDogwood, not teaching your granny to suck eggs at all. Your post was very helpful.

The irony is that I've experienced labour (2 days, 8hr second stage, blue light transfer, ventouse, episiotomy, attempted manual rotation and then emcs). I don't want to go through it again. I certainly no longer have dreams of whale music and breathing the baby out in a pond at midnight. I don't want a single contraction if I'm honest, let alone the whole experience. But I also don't want to feel that I didn't even try. TBH I don't know what I want. To not feel like a failure largely.

You know what, I bore myself. DH thinks I should just book for an elcs. I thought that for a while too but I have this brilliant Superman of a consultant who saw me well before I even got pregnant and he has been the catalyst in me feeling like I can do this, that I can have a baby the way nature intended, that he can help me do that, that it wouldn't be like last time. And I feel that despite that, the faith the cons has in me, the positivity he finally inspired, my body is wonky anyway and it was only ever a pipe dream.

Oh and buttonmoon, you'd be so disappointed if you knew who I 'really' was. The mystery is so much more exciting.

but will you be wearing a pink carnation?!

You are not a failure. This thing called having a baby is so very variable that it is what it is and so much of it is beyond your control that you can't possibly be a failure.

Heck, the odds of you getting pg in the first place are not always brilliant, then hanging onto a pg in the first 12 weeks... It's amazing we do it at all!!

Take a few weeks to think about it rationally before deciding anything.

I understand what you're saying about your consultant but will he be there? And even if he is, it's not him experiencing the sleeplessness of now is it? Or the (totally unneccessary) guilt if this baby gets stuck too and he pulls the plug and sends you for another emcs. I really think much of what you're saying is about control. And I don't blame you one bit for that!

Think. And then think a bit more. But try not to build this birth up into something it's not. It is a means to an end.

My baby was in the breech position during my 12wk and 20wk scan (normal, apparently). I never felt much movement (just hiccups near my belly button, and could feel a hard lump there too) but as it was my first pregnancy, I didn't know any different. I kept getting told by every midwife that babies turn all the time, and that baby was 'head down' but didn't feel anything....I got induced at 41 + 12 and after a couple of hours of contractions it was discovered that....ds was still breech! So emcs. I'd say trust your instinct, it's very powerful; ask for more scans nearer the time for reassurance.

It's all about control. You're very perceptive. The ptsd from last time round came not from the cs but from the utter terror I felt at being so out of control.

I don't talk about it in my normal name because I like to use MN as a distraction and can escape from the pregnancy as a whole. And when in my normal name I'm very keen to always point out that the parent you are is so much more than the way in which you brought your child in the world. I can spend hours waxing lyrical about the unimportance of the birth in terms of the parent you are but somehow never manage to apply the logic to me.

I doubt they'd give me more scans Slinky, unless they're confirming the breech position (it's easy to feel the head high up tbh). They are very, very reluctant to scan you unless it's imperative.

Oh and the consultant will deliver the baby whatever I decide. CS or VBAC, he's on call from August onwards. He's assured me he will be delivering bar acts of God.

I think I know what I'd be doing in your shoes then. That way you've failed at nothing - you've taken control and made a decision.

Feeling a little guilt that you've not even tried is one thing. But if it happens all over again? What then? As you've said, you don't want to fall apart for your big, perceptive girl.

In your shoes I'd be booking that section and throwing myself into that. And if you feel bad afterwards? The get yourself some more counselling and ask them to deal with the guilt. At least you wouldn't have to deal with the fall-out from the sheer terror you felt last time.

I'd also worry that every time someone said something during labour, or every time things seemed to take a little longer than you thought, you'd be so worried it's going to be like last time that you'd never fully relax and get on with it. And therefore possibly end up with more intervention than you needed because you can't allow yourself to get on with it.

And waxing lyrical about something you're unable to do is quite normal! I do it all the time!

The fact he's breech means he's more likely to turn than your daughter being head down. He's not ready yet to find his position, he likes being upright and when he's ready - especially when the BH kicks in - he will get into position. Your daughter found the position early on and was comfortable with it, she had no reason to turn.

Totally empathise with the footling! My eldest was born footling - so footling that before I had a section I was only delivering membranes, when they opened me up they had to give me a classical as they couldn't see her when they cut me transverse! - all through the pregnancy she was kicking my bladder and cervix, it felt like she was sat on my pelvis and walking around sometimes. She was born at 31 weeks though so she didn't have time to turn.

Ha, men always so often like the idea of an elCS - nice and planned, you can note the date in your manly Blackberry, take time off work, have a date to anticipate Great Things to be happeneing - when I was keen on my VBAC my DH made half-joking remards about how much more convenient an elCS woul be - he never pushed the point, but I knew he kind of ment it. A little.

The control thing is so difficult - at one point in my pregnancy with DS2 I had to make the conscious decision to accept I was no longer in control and sort of deliberately handed control over to those looking after me (this was made harder by the fact that apart from a stubborn moo, I am also a dr...). It did help. If I bled, I bled (I had Grad 4 placenta praevia) - it was no longer My Fault IYKWIM. I had to trust my consultant/MWs that they would look after us. And they did . Mind, I still feel guily that DS2 was delivered early, although he is now 7 and there is nothing wrong with him apart from Olympic Cheek...

You will find your way through this, if for no other reason that you have to - and you know what: your DD is going to be fine, even if you were to dip (which you might not as you are so much more aware of your feelings and what might happen this time round) - 'mummy loves you but is feeling tired/sad/angry/whatever' goes a long way for a 4 year old IME.

DH is very good tbh and his opinion on having an elcs is predominantly for my state of mind, all the time acknowledging that it would also be easier all round. He's a copper and I could go into labour while he's mid-arrest and he can't be contacted. And I could know that I wouldn't be in labour on dd's first day at school. He also thinks- rightly -it will help me have some control. Knowing what will happen, what won't happen. In general terms obviously. But he also recognises that I have this need to at least try. His honest opinion is that the best thing for me should this baby be ceph or even frank breech I suppose, is that I labour but if it doesn't go to plan they have clear contingencies in place. The cons agrees actually and says that it would help me to put limits on it ie an hour's resting 2nd stage plus an hour's active pushing but no more. I can see where he's coming from.

Pac, my midwife said the same as you last week. That I need to hand care over to them a bit and trust them to know how to do their job instead of fighting against them as well as whatever my body's doing at any given point. She also said, and I quote, "I've met Mumsnetters before. You know too much". I didn't blardy mention MN.

@ your MW - but also !

Actually, my dh is/was even more against having a cs than I am/was!

Am so very uncomfortable today. Think this one is indeed a bit of a big un. The thought of another 7+wks like this fills me with dread . If only it'd move it's shoulder out from under my ribs I might be a bit comfier but it's now been there for a long time. Several weeks.

Oh, woe is me.

How's tricks buttonmoon?

I've no idea what's happening with this baby now tbh. I woke up the other morning and I could have sworn he was oblique (top of bump soft, two bumps at the bottom, one left, one right, was assuming bum and head). But after walking around for an hour I got back to kicks v low down BUT also hefty jabs up by my ribs. But I don't know whether he's breech and the high up jabs are hands or he's ceph and they're feet, with the low down ones being hands/head.

The thing is I have a home doppler from when pg with dd (problematic early days) and his heartbeat is below my belly button, down to the left. Higher up I can't hear it at all. Might he be ceph now after all?

OP I demanded an elcs with my first baby, having been my sisters birth partner and being scarred by the hideousness of what I witnessed - though it pales compared to your birth story.

I just wanted to make the point to you that an elcs is very different to a emcs. I was in with dc1 for 2 nights, with dc2&3 for one night only each time. It is an easy recovery as your body is not sapped by a horrid labour in the run-up, simple as that. With dc3 I had him in a sling on my front and the bigger two in a double buggy at 11 days postbirth. I am in no way a supermum pushing boundaries, I just want to make the point that an elcs is a beautiful, calm and gentle way to give birth - straight onto my chest to bf and I was propped up to see them born and take their first breath too.

Some people won't have had it as 'easy' as I did, sure, but for me personally, I would have walked over hot coals to avoid a traumatic birth and my babies being gently lifted into this world was heaven to my stressed out, upset mind.

HTH.

Pinot, I was very, very fortunate to have no problems with the emcs itself. I was in for 1 night only and was able to care for dd easily, no pain relief and pretty 'straightforward'. The trauma most certainly came from the labour/intervention before this. I know that an elcs could be an 'easy' straightforward choice.

But I still feel this regret that I might never, ever have a baby the way nature intended. And that makes me feel like a failure.

But then I don't want the trauma of a natural delivery either.

I don't particularly want to do any of it. You do it for me. You. Her. Anyone.

I will - I am vair good at birthing boys :)

I do try to understand your POV about non-vaginal deliveries (and I know others share the same feelings) but I just was so scared about the baby I would have been happy to have given birth with a knife and fork as long as bubba was OK. My Sisters baby was navy-blue when born and we thought she was gone. Hideous. I am a real scaredy-cat, and don't have high standards for myself anyway - so I managed to avoid this particular guilt-fest. It helped too, I think that my GP had emcs with her 1st, vaginal birth with her 2nd and elcs with her 3rd and 4th "as it hurt so damn much" :)

I think if I was an earth mother type, yes I would prefer to birth like generations before me by squatting in a field but my overriding impression is that I am a modern woman, and I'll take a modern, safe option that is best for me and my baby. I genuinely haven't regretted it for a second. And the Mums who wang on about "natural = best" bore me shitless anyway, so it's just another reason to avoid them.

I also wonder if it helps me as I bf each son for 12mths so I really feel I can tick the box marked "good mummy" anyway?

I've decided there's no such thing as a good mummy. Only good enough.

I did bf dd to natural term through some hideous hiccups because I believed I had to persevere to ridiculous lengths to only ever let her have bm, no dummies, no formula, no bottles, nothing, having let dd down so badly at her birth. I was utterly mad about the whole thing.

But yes, you do it. Here, take him, he's kicky and squirmy today. Enjoy.

"having let dd down so badly at her birth" Mate, that is so not true. So not true.

Turtles, this thread has really made me . It's refreshing to see someone being so honest about how they feel about childbirth, however irrational it may be. You feel as you feel, it's not something to be reasoned away.

FWIW, if you're a failure then so am I with knobs on. DD1 was breech and I had an elcs. Found out at the time that I have a wonky pelvis and the chances are she wouldn't have got out by herself had I tried. DD2 also breech (I have a wonky womb too and they both got stuck in position and were unable to turn beyond a certain point). Again, elcs. A much nicer experience second time around - we had the screen down, music playing, all very relaxed. DD3 is due in July and at the moment (32 weeks) she's head down but not engaged. I've had fleeting moments of imagining the heroic water birth that I'd always planned on having but, in reality, knew from the start that I would opt for another ELCS.

If I'm honest then about 2% of me mourns not having my moment of glory whereby I astound everyone with my courage and sheer grit. However, in much the same way that I don't subscribe to the idea that I should be able to pull in £100K a year, bring up a gaggle of children, give DH a blow-job and knock up a souffle at the same time, neither do I subscribe to the idea that I have done anything other than what's right for me and our children.

I heartily agree with Pinot that natural=best is a big crock of shit. I think that luck has a huge amount to do with it - some pregnancies lead to good births, others don't. I've had 2 friends who have had 3 at home in a birthing pool and then needed to go to hospital and have lots of intervention for number 4. I don't believe for a second that they chickened out for the last one, they were just different pregnancies.

I'm not trying to convince you to feel any other way as I firmly believe that you just have to feel what you feel and accept it. I just think that everyone has their own story and their own regrets. We all feel that we fail in so many ways in parenthood and tend to assume that others are doing it far better than we are. Well, chances are they're not. I'm sorry that you feel so shitty about it (and sorry for writing such a rambling and slightly nonsensical post) and I hope that, however things go, you end up being ok with it.

Turtles and buttonmoon - I will join your club. Second breech baby for me and going for an ECv tomorrow despite low fluid. My babies were in breech at 12 weeks, 20 weeks, 30 weeks and again at 36 weeks and everyone said they would turn!! Like you said they kick and dance but never ever flip! I got irritated this time when people said it and started to debate with them - I soon realized it wasn't worth it and so took on a mostly glazed expression!!! It worked a treat!

Turtles, I know this is hard but could you try reframing the elcs decision if you get to that and try to see it that you are actually making the best decision for your baby. You sound like a really great person who is focussed on doibg the best for others and your baby but then beating yourself up for having to make a decision which is actually the best option for them, not you.

Final note - I do love the crazy kicking and dancing of breech babies as you feel like you get to know them so well before they have even arrived!

Thanks for the post - made me feel better about my intolerance to people constantly telling me something that I know is not going to happen!