Wow; it's only circumcision..

[Chloejp91]

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

Booty, I scrolled back up and read it. I'm getting confused between two threads.

I would never justify either, I'm an intactivist and probably do more intactivism than most Brits, neither are nicer than the other, neither is better than the other. I was explaining why the grandfather is able to hold them and - when I think that even that is barbaric - how the modern version is far more dangerous and barbaric. I think it is wrong for anyone to use religious reasons as a justification for an amputation when Abraham would have killed his son if he'd tried it. I don't think religious reasons is a good reason for blood letting (which is pretty much what a traditional circumcision is) either and I was just as quick to jump on it when the USA decided they would allow blood letting done by hospitals to protect little girls from FGM - I'm glad to say that's been shelved!

It's like comparing two forms of capital punishment. I think they're all evil and barbaric, it doesn't matter how much the person suffers. A chair is no better than an injection. Even if it is possible to say that one is less painful or whatever.

Just a quick update, I have changed my mind and have decided not to go through with circumcising my son. My OH wasn't too pleased but I showed him some of the links posted and I also did my own research and he understood my reservations. I saw the disadvantages outweighed the benefits so.. But if my son decided to do so in the future I won't stop him but that will be his decision to make instead of mine and my partners.

Decides*

Chloe, that is fantastic. I wish everyone was as intelligent and open minded as you are. It's a shame people on the whole don't bother to do their own research. Wishing you the best of luck with your baby boy.

In the community in which I live (orthodox jewish) all boys are circumcised, ideally at 8 days old (unless there is a health reason not to delay). Suprisingly even those who are not very observant observe this particular ritual, which I find very odd.

Its done by a mohel, who may or may not be a doctor, but is very very experienced in performing circumcisions - probably does in excess of 5 a week, every week.

It doesn't have to be the grandfather holding the baby (including holding the legs still) but its considered a great honour, so this is naturally given to the grandfather of the baby. Dh's father held DS1 as my dad had already held my nephew, whereas DS1 was DH's fathers first grandson.

Anasthesia is not used as this would greatly incrase the risk of the procedure. There are no stitches and it heals very quickly.

Yes I know its barbaric, but if you are an orthodox jews there really is no choice, you either circumcise your son or you'd be excommunicated etc etc. Its not a "cultural thing", its religious requirement on the boys parents (actually the father).

I know both my sons would have felt immense pain, and its of course hard to do this when the baby is 8 days old and still hormonal from the birth.

That is brilliant news, I'm sure you've come to the right decision. :)

MumNWLOndon, if you think the procedure is barbaric and would have caused your sons immense pain, why did you allow it to go ahead?

midori1999 I tried to explain, will try a bit more. Its a religious requirement, and we are orthodox practising jews. Its non negotiable.

Its not "cultural" its a religious requirement on DH, and if we delayed for a non health reason (almost all done by 12 weeks), DH would be trangressing the obligation to circumcise his son every day it wasn't done.

Everyone (apart from those on the edges of the community) circumcises their sons.

If I didn't want to circumcise my sons we'd basically have to leave the community (ie our synagogue, our children from their school - actually if DS1 hadn't been circumcised we wouldn't have got a place etc). No one would speak to us, everyone would be talking about us. I doubt even my sons would be able to marry within the community unless they had the procedure done.

Is it worth it then MumNWLondon? Communities that don't expect the mutilation of babies are readily available for you to join elsewhere. Schools, too.

LoopyLoopsOfSparklyFairyLights - I said very difficult to explain, and am now realising its impossible.

But what you are asking is that would I give up my whole life (including my DH), just to avoid circumcising my son?

So what about peadophiles then MumNWLondon?

Aren't we led to believe that they can't help their behaviour too? Aren't we led to believe that, like you, there is something that they feel is incumbant upon them which leads them to abuse children in the most despicable ways?

We don't excuse them though do we? When we catch up with them, they feel the full force of the law and are quite rightly vilified and locked up for their unspeakable acts. Their names are also placed on the sex offenders register. We even try to rehabilitate them to behave like normal civilised human beings. Perhaps that what you need doing to you too. You clearly need it when you prefer to allow acts of the vilest abuse to be carried out on your children rather than upset your husband and members of your local community.

My question is why shouldn't these "mohul" characters and the parents and relatives who hold babies down while their genitals are mutilated be subject to the same treatment as peadophiles? They are allowed to abuse children quite openly and brazenly, advertising thier services and so on, and even throw a celebratory meal afterwards to celebrate the abusive act. When you see it written down it seems too ridiculous to be true - but it is! Why do they get away with it? I wish someone would tell me because I don't know. It makes no sense whatsoever to me or any civilised person.

It's sick and vile and people who practice it should be locked up and put on the sex offenders register where they belong.

You can't dock a dog's tail without feeling the full force of the law, and anyone else certainly couldn't carry out ritual genital mutilation on a child without being locked up yet this lot of religious freaks get away with it day in and day out.

It makes my blood boil and makes me feel absolutely desperately sad and ashamed in equal measure that this is allowed to go on in my society.

ChloeJP, I'm so glad to hear about the decision you've come to.

If your DS decides to get himself done when he's old enough to make that decision for himself that will be his decision alone.

At least you have protected him while it is in your power to do so and allowed him the right to be free to make his own decisions about his own body.

MumNWLondon, have a look at this link:

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

In the 21st century more and more enlightened Jews are turning against this barbarous ritual abuse.

GenevieveHawkings sorry don't understand your post or the analogy, of course paedophilia is totally dispictable. Not to mention illegal and ruins lifes.

Just remember that all these men who are happy to circumcise their sons & grandsons were themselves circumcised as tiny babies in the same way.

As I said, I can't really explain, not on the board and probably not in person.

Yes some jews on the very edges of the community are choosing not to circumcise, so the website doesn't surprise me at all.

I am sickened by this thread. I can't watch the videos as I know they would haunt me for weeks.
I have 2 gorgeous, perfect DS's. CHloe so pleased you have changed your mind.
MumNWLondon i would jump in front of trains to save my sons from being hurt. You allowed your sons to have part of their penis cut off without anaesthetic so you could keep your kids in the same school as loads of others who had been similarly mutilated. So in turn they can do the same cruel horrific thing to their own sons. That is child abuse and you disgust me.

Sorry, should probably have said "it disgusts me" I don't even know you, you can't disgust me.

Just can't understand how any parent could deliberately torture their child like this.

It makes me feel so angry and sad that things like this go on in the name of religion.

Oh, and if someone stubs out a cigarette on the penis of a newborn baby, say less than twelve weeks old, is it OK if the baby can't remember it when it has grown up?

Who was it said that great evil is perpetrated when good men stand back and do nothing?

MumNWLondon - your comments are bringing this thought to my mind. I understand your points and how incredibly difficult it must be to stand up and be different in a rigid repressive religious community such as the one you describe. I realise it is probably extremely patriachal and women's opinions may not count for much. But you are colluding in a practice which even you admit is barbaric. How you can allow it to be perpetrated on your sons is beyond me. I would not want to be involved in a religious regime which would excommunicate me for acting on my principles. I understand that you feel you would be losing a great deal in defying your community but surely it is more godly to do the right and moral thing than to blindly follow the religious code in such a passive fashion. It is like the mothers who allow FGM to be perpetrated on their daughters as it is a religious requirement and the daughters would not be able to marry in their community without this procedure. Ye gods, they should be ashamed of themselves and their encouragement of religious extremism and "god given" male dominance.

Surely there must be some strong women who are questioning this and revisiting religious beliefs which were prescribed 2000 years ago?

I think I'm going to bow out of this thread now. Yes its very patriachal religious / community, and yes women's opinions wouldn't count for much. Mothers are rarely in the room when the circumcision is performed, although the father has to say a blessing that he is happy to hand over his son for circumcision. That being said even my jewish lesbian friends had a circumcision ceremony for their son in exactly the same way.

daretodream It wasn't about keeping the kids in their school, more that if I had been adament about not circumcising, then I am guessing DH would not have married me, nor would any other orthodox observant man.

I would never criticise others religious practise, and as I already said, its not really a pick and mix thing, I like being an orthodox jew, I don't want to leave the community. My views on it are clearly affected by the fact that every single male baby I know has been publically circumcised, and none seems to be traumatised afterwards. And yes all mothers talk about it being barbaric and can't bear to hear their sons cry, but only those on the real fringes of the community don't.

I don't understand why anyone (ie in the USA) would do it just because everyone else does though.

MumNWLondon - but that is exactly what you have done!!!

Done it 'just because everyone else does'

Everyone else in your community.

"None seems to be traumatised afterwards". Oh well, that's OK then. Like my cigarette burn analogy.

Eugh. It's so horrible to think this goes on in the country where I live.

Your poor boys.

daretodream No, our sons are circumcised as we believe there is a religious requirement to do so. There isn't a concept of "dispensation" in jewish law.

It was not because every one else does so it must be a good idea.

But as I said I have had enough of posting for everyone to attack me. I know that its an emotive subject, and the only reason for posting was to try to explain why it was done. I'd never start a thread on it myself.

mumNWlondon, your son paid the price for your standing in your community. if i was told i would be exiled to live alone with my sons on an island because i didn't circumcise them then i would go. i would never ever choose to put my child through that for something as fickle as being accepted by 'community'. there are other communities you know. communities that don't insist you torture and abuse your children. sorry but yours isn't one I'd be fighting to stay in. your poor children taht they are so low on your list of priorities.

i don't for one second believe taht you don't get genevieve analogy but perhaps someone as easily swayed by tehri community isn't up to 'getting' such a simple analogy.

MumNWLondon - genuine question, what is the religious requirement to circumcise?

And do you yourself truly deep in your heart believe in this requirement?

And do you believe that "God" him/herself requires this procedure be done and that it is extremely important to him/her?

Or is it a man-made religious/cultural requirement?

I am genuinely interested in your personal perception and understanding of the meaning of circumcision.

chloe

I just wanted to say that I'm really glad that you have come to this decision.

:)

yes so glad for chloe and her son. it makes this thread worthwile. lets hope the otehr parents reading that are considering this will rethink it.

'I would never criticise others religious practises', says MumNWLondon.

I wonder whether you would change your tune if Christians insisted on pulling out the fingernails of newborns or such like..?