3.5 year old refusing to potty train

[MrsKaty]

My 3.5 year old is violently opposed to toilet training. He won't sit on the toilet at home at all. He will sit on the toilet at nursery and go through the routine - trousers and nappy down, sit down, wait, wipe, flush, wash hands - so we know he knows what to do. He just... won't.
He hasn't responded to a reward chart or bribery, he just won't do it. We've tried pants under his nappy so he could feel what wet means, but he didn't seem to feel it? He knows when he needs to poo but doesn't seem to know when he is weeing/has done a wee.
What do I do to make this happen without turning it into a war? He's super stubborn. He starts school in September and I'm worried he won't be ready....
Any advice welcomed.

if its any help many mothers struggle with the first, they seem to find it overwhelmingly you will probably find its easier with subsequent babies.

Nah, some children are easier to toilet train than others. DC 1 done and dusted in two days. If my second child has been like that I'd have been smug beyond belief. DC2 took months (and two attempts as the first time I thought I'd started too early). I was carrying spare clothes in the boot of the car for a year. DC2 is late teens now and bright and capable and no SEN needs. But I still look back on toilet training her and shudder. You have my sympathies OP.

@Philandbill Thank you. Sometimes you lose sight of the long game, I guess. He will learn to use the toilet and me stressing won't speed it up.

I was about to write the same thing. If you leave it later you basically have trained them to understand what nappies are and rely on them. I did my son at 2nd birthday and will do the same for next 2 babies. It’s starting older, giving the child options and nappy pants which cause tons of problems

I agree that there are basically two routes on this: parent decides (within reason) when to start and goes for it or waiting until the child seems ready. I know when I was a child the parent-driven option was more common, partly due to cloth nappies and all the washing required!

My perspective is a bit different as both my DC are learning disabled so are already very late with toilet training. We have tried a more child led approach but after a mortifying poo experience we decided to be more assertive with him and it has massively paid off. He is 11. I’m not sure how much this will help but it has definitely led me more towards a parent led approach.

Some children do take longer, but the earlier you start, the more time you leave for them to get it.
My first trained really easily at 23 months. I tried the second one at that age and it was an absolute none starter. We tried again at 2.4 and it was mostly better but did take longer than the first. However I would have stopped and started again if needed if he clearly wasn't making any progress. All children have to start somewhere and as the Oh Crap book describes, 2-2.5 is usually better in terms of the balance between how 'stubborn' older children can be when they really don't want to do something, and children having enough understanding of their own bodies.

Obviously children with SEN need to tread a different path, but AFAIK OPs child doesn't have any SEN.

I still don't really see how I was as rude as you claim, but I have apologised.

I think in all likelihood those pushing the narrative that you’ve failed if you’ve not potty trained by 2.5 have probably not had children who are actually difficult to potty train, even if they think they have. Children are all different, different approaches work in different cases and you know your child best and will know what approach is right for them and you. I did wonder at one point if we missed the boat with our daughter due to issues with constipation, but I’m not convinced we did. In hindsight I think she just wasn’t ready.

We tried every 1-2 months from the age of 2 and believe me when I say I can be as stubborn and assertive as required. For us it just wasn’t going to happen until she was ready. She held her bladder for over 10 hours on several occasions until she was screaming in pain, but still refused to go until she had a nappy on. I am not sure what continuing to enforce that trauma on her would have achieved but I am fairly confident it could have caused some long term negative associations with toileting. Go with your gut instinct and base it on what you feel is right for your child, good luck :)

Urgh this is so confusing I just don't know what to do.

Yesterday we had 3 accidents and two weeks in the potty, so far today we haven't had either and I'm worried we are back in the "holding it in for hours" phase. I feel so disheartened!

It also doesn't help that we've had to leave the house (currently in the car) so there's now no hope of a wee in the potty as even in the safety of home it's a struggle. She's never going to do it anywhere else.

I was also a bit too insistent on getting her to sit on the potty before we left as I was desperate and I'm worried I've undone all the work of the last few days as she was finally getting more comfortable with it.

Sigh.

Urgh this is so confusing I just don't know what to do.

Yesterday we had 3 accidents and two weeks in the potty, so far today we haven't had either and I'm worried we are back in the "holding it in for hours" phase. I feel so disheartened!

It also doesn't help that we've had to leave the house (currently in the car) so there's now no hope of a wee in the potty as even in the safety of home it's a struggle. She's never going to do it anywhere else.

I was also a bit too insistent on getting her to sit on the potty before we left as I was desperate and I'm worried I've undone all the work of the last few days as she was finally getting more comfortable with it.

Sigh.

Just, for goodness' sake, get it sorted before he goes to school.

So helpful 🙄

@Pottytrainingfunshe honestly doesn’t sound ready to me if she’s refusing to go. What’s stopping you parking it for a month and coming back to it? It is confusing as it’s one of those topics that everyone has different approaches/opinions on. I think you have to go with what you think is best as you know your daughter best, but to me it doesn’t really sound like you’re making progress, so I’d stop and come back to it.

@Pottytrainingfun have you tried going shopping for a toilet seat and letting her decorate it with stickers/nail polish?

Good old fashioned bribes work sometimes too. Bluey short on the phone while she's sat on the potty? Run water next to her if you can!

I'd commit now if she's 3.

With my daughter I tried a few times with her between 2 and 3 and she just wasn’t ready, lots of crying when the toilet was mentioned etc.

I left it and tried again at 3 and a half and she was a dream to train at that age and was dry day and night within less than 10 days.

fast forward to a few years later and it was ds turn to toilet train. Again I tried a few times between 2 and 3 and he just wasn’t understanding it. I left him until 3 and a half again and he was just as difficult but I couldn’t back down on it as he was due to go to school.

it took FOREVER to train him, he was an absolute nightmare. It was at least a year for him not to be having multiple changes a day.

however he’s 8 now and he’s still not reliable with the toilet and we’re under a consultant for it and we have weekly phone calls with the children’s incontinence team.

i have to take spare clothes with me everywhere etc. it’s nothing to do with your child being 3, some children are just much harder to train than others

@Hercisback1 @SErunner Thank you.

Unfortunately we've tried it all, bribes don't work at all and we have a couple of potty and toilet seats but she doesn't like any of them.

Nothing is stopping us parking it except we've already done that a couple of times and I think all it's done is reinforce to her that it's optional and that if she holds out long enough we'll give in.

Up to yesterday we were really having progress compared to last time as with every wee she was getting more comfortable amd happy with herself (as opposed to crying throughout sitting on the potty before) and she'd be quick to wee as soon as she sat on it (it was taking ages of sitting on it the first time).

She was also protesting less and less in the mornings when told we would wear knickers that day. She was also happy to get on with the day and have the odd accident (the first time she'd hold it all day and be really upset and withdrawn).

Unfortunately yesterday she didn't wee all day until we put a nappy back on at 6pm and this morning she had a huge tantrum about going without a nappy again. So I'm really on the edge of giving up.

I just think if we give up again though she will just never learn, she will only just get more strong willed and stubborn about it?

What did get ds sitting on the toilet was him being able to choose from a basket of toys I bought for toilet training.

so I went to smyths and bought lots of little toys like multiple packs of tiny toy cars etc and I individually wrapped each item and put them in a basket. If he went to the toilet and had a wee or poo etc then he got to choose a parcel from the basket.

it did work with him being comfortable with going to the toilet and by the time all the toys had been unwrapped he would sit on it when asked.

With what you've written I'd carry on. Make pants not optional during the day. Nappies are for overnight only. She sounds like she knows you will stop if she carries on and it's more a battle of wills than her being unable.

It's 100% is a battle of wills and she is capable, I just don't know how much is her no wanting to vs her being genuinely scared/traumatised of it so I am a bit worried about scarring her for life!

She spent the morning saying she needed a wee but refused to sit on the potty no matter what I suggested until she wet herself. At least she's weed, which I prefer to her keeping it in all day. I've given her ownership of getting herself changed, putting clothes in the washing machine etc. She seemed to enjoy being given the responsibility. Hopefully she eventually realises it would be easier to just wee in the potty.

I'm also wondering whether we might need to go cold turkey at night too as she mentioned this morning how she would just wait until she had her bedtime nappy on. She is way too smart.

The overnight situation is different as they do need a hormone to wake up when weeing.

Sounds like you're in deep enough to carry on now. Don't back down!! Accept the peed on clothes and play it cool. I'd take pressure off and limit yourself to one mention an hour of needing the potty. Get her involved in clearing up the pee, make it a ballache so that hopefully she realises the potty is less effort.

OP, having a newborn (drip feed) will make this ten times harder because you’ve completely upended your son’s life. I think you need to prepare for this to take a long time now.

I don’t agree you’ve left it too late, I think it depends on the child.
DD I first tried just as we went into the first lockdown 5 years ago, after a couple of days we were getting nowhere so stopped, tried again 3 months later a couple of days after her 3rd birthday and she was dry within 3 days. She was in night time nappies (as we called them!) until she turned 5. Apart from one occasion when she had a UTI we had no accidents.
With DS we tried him earlier at 2.5. Yes he picked it up a lot quicker than DD however we’re now 9 months down the line and he’s still having 1-2 accidents a week. Sometimes I think I’d have been better waiting.

As per pp I wouldn’t attempt night time - that is dependent on hormones and some don’t start developing adequate levels until 5/6. This can be totally normal. Just keep the narrative consistent that nappies are for night time only if you proceed with daytime training.

It does sound like you’ve made a bit of headway if she has gone a few times and I think it’s normal to expect a few steps forward and one back. Like you we tried bribery, choosing pants, different seats, the works. We ended up with more pants than we’d ever need and a cupboard full of toileting paraphernalia, and she wAs still in nappies 😂

I think it really is your call as to when enough is enough in terms of level of her distress. Our situation was very similar but during our last few attempts after 2 days of her refusing to wee for 10 ish hours I decided enough was enough and I wasn’t going to put her through any more. A month or so later she turned round and said she wasn’t going to wear nappies anymore and that was that, potty training done. I also never believed it would happen and was at my wits end as she was 3.5. I think only you can make the judgement on what is ‘enough’ for you and her but I do think she will get there in time whatever you do. She sounds like a smart cookie and will likely surprise you with how well she manages it once she does crack it.

That is really good to hear that we can be in this situation and it can still turn around overnight when she does finally decide she's ready.

I think if we'd had another full day of holding it i would have given up but we've had 4 accidents today instead and she's been quite cheerful and we've even been able to go out. She's helped clean up every time and has just said "I'm sad I forgot to tell you I needed a wee in the potty" so I'm hoping it is slowly sinking in.

Still super frustrating as I saw it coming every time and took her to the potty but she refused to sit on it and weed herself seconds after walking away. It's so weird when between this and last time she's probably done about 10 potty wees, why suddenly refuse it altogether?

Really nervous about tomorrow at nursery and how it will go. I'm 99%sure we'll pick her up upset and uncomfortable after holding it all day like last time and i'll give up again, but who knows, she might be more compliant there.

I'm feeling so mentally exhausted with trying to keep her distracted and happy while worrying about what the best thing to do is. She's also been really clingy to me, I guess she seems me as her comfort through this scary transition. Poor DH hasn't had a look in. It's been an intense 4 days, work will feel like a rest tomorrow!

Don't give up even if she does hold it at nursery. Otherwise you'll undo all the progress from today and you will confuse her so much.

Speak to the nursery staff, explain what happened yesterday and what happened last time, so they can try to give her more support.

who has said that you are an appalling parent if you have not forced a child to be potty trained by 2.? The OP asked for advice and got it.
BTW unless there are learning or physical development issues there is no reason for a child to be pooing in his nappy at nearly 4. Sadly allowing him to do this will make him unattractive to other adults and his friendship group and will not please staff at nursery or play groups that he may attend., So its not to be encouraged