I cannot potty train my four year old

[Chinchi14]

Hi all, my husband and I feel totally defeated with our four year old son. We started potty training him a year ago and we are no closer to having him trained. He will easily go through five changes of pants and trousers a day but he is fine with telling us that he needs a poo and will do that on the toilet. If we tell him it's time to go to the toilet or that he has had an accident and needs to go to the loo he gets cross and runs away. He will deny he needs a wee or that he has had an accident and often we have to physically carry him to the toilet or he will sit in wet clothes all day.

We have tried several ways to encourage him to go to the toilet for a wee but so far none have worked. We tried the sticker reward chart but he's not motivated by that. We said no treats till you've had a day of dry pants - that lasted a day and then he wasn't interested. We have even said that we can't go out anywhere nice as we have no more clean pants so he has to keep that pair dry or no outings, but that doesn't work (that was pre-lockdown). We have also said mummy and daddy can't play a game till you have a wee and that doesn't work, we cannot seem to find a motivation for him. My husband has even shown him how to do a big boy wee to make it more interesting, but even that doesn't entice him.

I think it's turned into a power struggle and we have tried talking to him about it, asking him if something about the toilet bothers him but he says there isn't anything. I always get him to take his wet pants to the washing machine and involve him in clean up (there's rarely a puddle) but even that doesn't annoy him enough, even though I point out that he could be playing instead of cleaning up if he'd gone to the toilet.

I feel I must have gone horribly wrong somewhere along the potty training line and I honestly do not know where to go from here, short of putting him back into pull ups. When he was going to nursery before lockdown, they couldn't get through to him either, peer pressure or stickers didn't work for them either.

Help!

Firstly try to relax- kids pick up on signals where they can tell that something is important to you and they use that power!
I've just started pt my little girl, she's a lot younger but I've been using the oh crap potty training book and although the tone of the book is a bit funny at times the info seemed sensible. She's also got advice on older tots (which she makes clear is a lot harder, so it explains why you are finding it tough) plus there is a Facebook group for extra support too x

Thanks for your reply Sammy, he has certainly picked up on what a big deal this potty training malarkey is to us! We should have started when he was two but he was seriously ill in and out of hospital for that whole summer so we had to wait till the following year.

Have you tried the ping pong ball in the toilet trick?
They have try and hit it...

I feel for you. I had a nightmare with my son too. Also 4. He was shitting his pants regularly and nursery kept telling me to keep going. It was so stressful.

In the end I firmly put the ball in his court and put him back in pull ups. I said it's up to you - when you're ready to be a big boy you can show me by not pooing in your pants.

He was gutted that I took the big boy pants away but within 2 weeks of making it his choice to prove to me he could do it, he was dry.

So we put him back into big boy pants and he's been fine since.

For him it was the psychology of him being in control. Stubborn little monkey. Good luck x

Ping pong trick worked for my boys, target practice with a jet of wee, fun times

No we haven't tried the ping pong ball trick - knowing my son he'd fish it out the loo and throw it though (we have huge issues with throwing, but that's another story!)

The thought of putting him back into pull ups did cross my mind but I was worried about damaging his confidence. I do think it's a control issue for him though, so it may be worth trying.

This website is good:
www.eric.org.uk/pages/category/potty-training

Don't beat yourself up about it, life happens and some things go by the wayside when there are other things on.

Main thing is to get you and hubby back feeling positive and engaged with the process- have a read around what advice there is for older kids, agree a method then stick to it for at least 2/3 weeks. Giving up too early is the main reason things fail and it will take longer overall!

It all feels a bit punitive. Absolutely a power struggle.

Lavatory every hour or so but linked to going before breakfast, before a drink, before lunch, before your walk, before going outside etc. Then reward performance each and every time. Don’t accept running away but no big fuss.A sticker may not be enough just now. Counters in a jar to spend at a play shop maybe.
A step up so he can reach and a ping pong ball target.

OP does he know that he needs to go? DS2 was late potty training and shortly after he started in Reception his teacher said she thought he had Dyspraxia. He later had the diagnosis confirmed and it means his body and brain are very disconnected which made it difficult for him to know when he needed to go.

If the ping pong ball wouldn't work, maybe you could try something like this?

Baby Potty Training Urinal for Toddler Boy with Funny Whirling Target Green https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01ANK3U9Y/ref=cmswwrcppapiii_iKiQEbMDATDFT

Lakeswimmer - he has managed a few days of dryness here and there, mostly last year when he would say he needed a wee and then happily go for one so I would say he probably does know when he needs to go. Weirdly enough, he was always better going to the toilet when we were away from home as opposed to being at home, I always thought it was the other way around.

Is there something else going on? I don’t want to worry you more by suggesting there could be another issue, but my son has special needs and was delayed in toilet training. This was not obvious at the time as he’s an intelligent child. Funnily enough he also went to the loo for a poo but not for a wee. Just always worth talking to someone as maybe he can’t help it.

Have you ever done completely bare bum? We've been doing the oh crap book method, about 3 weeks in and slowly trying to introduce clothes back. When bare bum we don't really have any accidents anymore, only with clothes on. The method warns against using pants/knickers as feel too snug like a nappy, and that comando in trousers was better when starting to wear clothes again.

I would just start being really blasé about it. So have a pile of pants and trousers in easy access and every hour or so say 'do you need a wee' and accept any answer. Any accidents say 'oh well, next time on the toilet' then help clean him up and give him some new clothes.

My older two boys had absolutely no motivation to be dry and any pressure made it even worse. It tried everything (rewards and getting cross) but they were useless. In fact it often made it worse. With my youngest I was so laid back and can barely remember toilet training him!

Have you got any other concerns ?

It took peer pressure for my son to "get it". Turns out he was more than capable but just wasn't fussed . 1st day in nursery and he wet himself (as usual), and the perfectly professional staff changed him but of course it wasn't totally private as they can't be 1:1 with toileting or naked children. He wasn't a fan of that and never wet himself again

I presser post too soon. I only ask as looking back my DS was delayed in potty training and like a PP he has SEN,although we didn't know that at the time.

He was also very slow to learn to ride a bike and swim. Still struggles with using cutlery ans writing and has been diagnosed with DCD. Not trying to scare you but it's worth thinking of the bigger picture just in case.

Just checking, you did start with no pants? If you started in pants and trousers then it's skipping the hardest step. Add in habitual wetting and it's a recipe for disaster. Most 2 and 3 year olds are easy to train when naked but the harder bit is adding loose trousers and then underwear. If you started fully clothed then you've missed a trick.

With been blasé for a year now, it's only recently we have started to think perhaps we have been too laid back and so he thinks it's ok to always have wet pants. He is an incredibly stubborn kid (nursery had a hard time with him) and we tried our hardest to not make toileting an issue but I guess he's seen through that and he knows he can control it. He will wake up in the morning and happily announce he's having a wee in his night time pull up but says its ok as it's a nappy. I think he knows what he's doing, he is very much aware. If he had an accident when we were using treats to encourage him, he would say 'oh well, no treats for me' and shrug - he knows how to play the guilt card.

We haven't done bare bum since last summer but he would happily go around bare bottomed, we have to tell him ten times to get his pants on.

I'm due to speak to a HV about him, mainly due to toilet training, but also his obsession with throwing and his endless energy and need for constant stimulation, he's very full on everyday. I don't think he's autistic, he's very empathic and an excellent communicator so I don't think there is anything else going on with him that would be a cause for concern. As I said, he was seriously ill between the age of two and two and a half and needed an operation to correct a malformed bile duct that he'd been born with. His surgeon said it was very severe and that he'd probably been in pain his whole life (he was in agony towards the end and would vomit and pass out from it), so perhaps that experience has had an affect on him somehow, he still remembers it even now.

I think the surgery is likely to have had effect with his development as missed a chunk of usual physical/mental milestones.. esp if in pain before... if Eric still have their helpline call they are so helpful

It doesn't mean he is autistic, but just to say that plenty of autistic kids can be empathetic and good communicators.

I would say from what I am reading that it this definitely not your fault and not about laziness and that you may want to get professionals involved to look at everything as a whole. I'm wondering from what you have said, whether he is relating going to the toilet with the trauma he experienced before, whether he isn't getting the right signals, or there is something going on behaviourally, but I think getting support to unpick all the other elements of his behaviour might be beneficial. Paediatricians will say kids are physically ready at different ages for toilet training and anywhere between 18 months to 4.5 years is the range so don't panic yet. My eldest didn't, and still doesn't get the right signals and has lots of accidents unless reminded to go. There are lots of arguments of not wanting to go and us saying to but we try to keep it low stress if possible. It's not worth a battle. My second was 3 before physically ready and got it within two weeks and rarely has accidents.

Agree with PP. I'm not saying your son is autistic, but its not true to say he can't be because he's empathetic.

The need to keep throwing things could be sensory seeking or looking for proprecptive feedback . I'm no expert but my son has some sensory issues (not ASD) and had an OT assessment done which flagged up his DCD and his need for propreceptive feedback as he wasnt receiving the signals in the same strength as he should. It might be worth you reading up about sensory and OT issues in young children in case any of it rings true.

In hindsight I wish I had known earlier what was going on, so of it even makes one person read this and think actually it is kind of odd that X does this or cant do that then its worth it. Dont assume your childs school will flag it up because IME they wont.

Hmm, well he has always been obsessive with movement, like throwing and spinning items and he is fascinated by marble runs, cogs and anything to do with physics and engineering such as chain reactions, perpetual motion and centrifugal force. He can name all of those and tell you what they mean and he was telling me about building an Archimedes screw so he could flood our house from the garden - I guess that's a huge red flag to you all. Have I just been really naive and in denial that there could be something else wrong with my boy? His previous illness terrified us and he still needs regular check ups to make sure everything is ok with his liver, pancreas and bile duct (he had pancreatitis and the beginnings of liver damage). I suppose I always thought his nursery would have raised it if they thought something wasn't quite right, but they just said he was stubborn as a mule and that he knows his own mind.

I second the PP, autistic children can be very empathetic. Your son has been through a lot bless him, it’s understandable there are some delays. Throwing things and a constant need for stimulation sound like he may be sensory seeking, so still worth checking out.