I cannot potty train my four year old

[Chinchi14]

Hi all, my husband and I feel totally defeated with our four year old son. We started potty training him a year ago and we are no closer to having him trained. He will easily go through five changes of pants and trousers a day but he is fine with telling us that he needs a poo and will do that on the toilet. If we tell him it's time to go to the toilet or that he has had an accident and needs to go to the loo he gets cross and runs away. He will deny he needs a wee or that he has had an accident and often we have to physically carry him to the toilet or he will sit in wet clothes all day.

We have tried several ways to encourage him to go to the toilet for a wee but so far none have worked. We tried the sticker reward chart but he's not motivated by that. We said no treats till you've had a day of dry pants - that lasted a day and then he wasn't interested. We have even said that we can't go out anywhere nice as we have no more clean pants so he has to keep that pair dry or no outings, but that doesn't work (that was pre-lockdown). We have also said mummy and daddy can't play a game till you have a wee and that doesn't work, we cannot seem to find a motivation for him. My husband has even shown him how to do a big boy wee to make it more interesting, but even that doesn't entice him.

I think it's turned into a power struggle and we have tried talking to him about it, asking him if something about the toilet bothers him but he says there isn't anything. I always get him to take his wet pants to the washing machine and involve him in clean up (there's rarely a puddle) but even that doesn't annoy him enough, even though I point out that he could be playing instead of cleaning up if he'd gone to the toilet.

I feel I must have gone horribly wrong somewhere along the potty training line and I honestly do not know where to go from here, short of putting him back into pull ups. When he was going to nursery before lockdown, they couldn't get through to him either, peer pressure or stickers didn't work for them either.

Help!

BTW thank you all for your inputs. I appreciate you all taking time to provide your thoughts and advice :).

I agree with @user3274826 naked is easier. Good weather is coming!

Worked for DD. I think they get used to having something between their legs where they pee (diaprr/underwear)

Just saw your previous message. Please don’t think there’s anything wrong with him. He’s obviously bright and if he is on the autistic spectrum it still doesn’t mean there’s anything ‘wrong’, he might just think differently. If you have concerns then I would go to your GP and ask to see a paediatrician. It always best to sort things out early on.

There’s nothing “wrong “with your boy , he is who he is 😀
He sounds very clever ..
Speak to your gp re toilet training , it may be he had to be referred to the local Eric unit or similar.
Mine was referred at 4 , when the letter came in she knew her name and asked what it was about .. I explained it was about not using the toilet and we would need to see about it as nappies, pull ups and cleaning of underwear didn’t really work for school attendance...
she sat quietly for a few minutes then appeared beside me handing over the nappies and pull ups I had in the house ... saying she didn’t need them any more .
Not an issue from that moment on ..
Definitely think it was a peer struggle in her case too ..

Try not to worry , it will get sorted , good luck .

Power struggle 🙄

I suppose I always thought his nursery would have raised it if they thought something wasn't quite right, but they just said he was stubborn as a mule and that he knows his own mind.

If he does have high functioning autism and is a good communicator with it (like my DS, who's also really into physics and a good old chat). then you may have to deal with lots of professionals telling you he's not autistic when they're not qualified to diagnose.

I was told the following:

Year 1 teacher: Nothing to worry about, DS is bright but "Emotionally immature - like his best friend. They'll grow out of it". (His best friend also was diagnosed with ASD, years later).

Year 2 teacher: raised eyebrows, gave the distinct impression she thought his stubbornness and sometimes headstrong personality was as a result of lax parenting.

Year 3: SENCO said he probably didn't have autism as he makes good eye contact (this is a crap thing to say, it's not true).

His Y3 teacher said she could see what we meant, however, and encouraged us to get a diagnosis. Which we did, and he's autistic (high functioning). Through learning about SEN, also discovered I have ADHD, which was a surprise! (Officially diagnosed now).

It's not something wrong with him, it's an aspect of his wonderful personality. I can't imagine him without it, it's part of him. It does cause problems, but the flip side is it gives him real and deep interests and passions. He sees the world in a different way from his peers, which can sometimes be tough, but also gives him a really interesting perspective on the world.

I'm trying to say, if he is autistic but is a great communicator and bright, you don't need to be scared of it, IME.

Sorry, I think ‘wrong’ was a bad choice of words. I guess I’m worried for him as he’s had his fill of doctors and I was hating the thought of him having to be possibly assessed for something else.

Thanks eleventy3, I needed to hear that. I honestly wouldn’t change a thing about my boy, well, perhaps apart from his toilet issues. I love him to pieces and just worry about him.

@ChipsAndKetchup exactly the same with our son. He kept deliberately pooing in his pants so we put him back in pull ups. One week later, we'd had a whole week of clean pull ups

@LynnThese4reSEXPEOPLE yep it's funny isn't it. Sometimes it's just about giving the child the control over their own destiny that seals the deal.

How are you getting on OP?

It's a weird one - he started preschool last Monday and has been dry for his teacher for whole days but he's still not dry at home, even when we send him to the toilet every hour or two. Putting him back into pull ups makes things worse as he knows it's a nappy that will hold the wee so he happily goes and doesn't care that he's wearing baby nappies. Giving him complete control over his own body doesn't work either as he just doesn't want to go to the toilet so will carry on wetting himself and occasionally soiling himself.

Today he's wet himself three times and happily pointed out the fact and smiled about it so I definitely think it's just a behavioral problem with him mixed up with some serious attitude. He thinks he's funny so I guess it's not malicious but it's starting to really tick me off. I've told him I'm not happy (sofly softly hasn't worked) and said he won't be getting any pants back to wear unless he starts using the toilet. Honestly I don't think he cares whether he's wearing pants or running around naked, but I don't know what else to do.

Hey, not sure if it would be any help but there is an alarm you can buy from the ERIC website that goes off when kids just start to wee. It is meant for nighttime but if he mainly has a problem at home during the day I don't see why you couldn't use it for that. It would alert you so you could take him straight to the toilet and It just might get him into the habit of going. Is there nothing he really loves that you could bribe him with, any toy? I know you said reward charts didn't work and I found that sometimes with my DS too. He is also 4 and 6 months ago he wouldn't have cared but now he gets it so it might be worth trying again. Also make sure it is a very short time to a reward so he only need to collect 5 stickers by going to the toilet 5 times to get a prize and then it doesn't seem too long. And also maybe a sweet of choc button for every time he goes as well as a sticker on the reward chart.

Hi OliviaPopeRules, thanks for your reply. We have tried choc buttons every time he did a wee and he loves chocolate but even that wasn't enough. If he refused to use the toilet he would just announce 'oh well, no chocolate for me.' We haven't found anything he cares more about than just refusing to use the toilet which makes me think it's just a behavioural power trip for him that he gets a lot of satisfaction out of. We tried rewarding him after one sticker but he got bored of that idea very quickly. He's very well behaved otherwise, goes to bed very easily without messing us around and usually eats very well, so maybe this is just his thing he likes to rebel against. I'm out of ideas and I'm just facing the fact that he will start school in September not completely potty trained - but his teacher may be able to whip him into shape, lord knows I've failed there!

I can’t comment on the ASD potential. But I did struggle with my DS and after trying every single trick (Stickers, chocolate, rejoicing, pants of choice etc) this one worked....

Glass jar with a small quantity of marbles in it.

Clear plastic box, well out of reach containing a number of desired items. Pens, sweets, small Lego, vouchers for trips out, etc etc.

Started with a value of marbles (let’s say 20) and an accident would result in a very matter of fact, non-emotional ‘oh well’ and removal of 2 marbles. This is NOT a punishing thing, it’s when you suspect he can control it but maybe something else is at play? At the end of the day we’d look at what marbles were left and if there were enough to ‘buy’ something from the box. We never threatened. We’d occasionally say ‘oh those pens in the box look good, don’t they?’ Or likewise. It’s hard to explain but it’s not threatening or negative, it’s neutral. If there weren’t enough marbles it would be a simple shrug and ‘oh well, never mind we’ll try again tomorrow’ and the box would go back on top of the cupboard.

It took away all the ‘if you do something I’ll give you a sticker’ and instead gave total reverse control. Minimal discussion about it so ‘never mind eh?’ And not much more and really quite unemotive and cheery. He was dry within 2 weeks.

I’m sure it wouldn’t work for all but it’s another technique to try?

Sorry that is a bit rubbish for you. Maybe if you have been trying to do it for a year could you take a 2-3 week break, put him in pull-ups, tell him he can use the toilet if he wants, don't talk about it all and the start fresh. It would give you a break and maybe a break from the cycle would help him too. Obviously you can judge best if it might work. Another option if you haven't tried it is putting the potty in the living room or wherever he is playing so he doesn't have to leave his toys or putting toys in the bathroom - not very hygienic but I guess if it works it's worth it! Best of luck with it, you might be surprised and if any just click one day.

Oh I meant to say you haven't failed at all. Potty training is a pain for some kids - you are just lucky or unlucky. My DS was trained for 6 months and then started pooing in his pants every day. I was losing it with him and then after a few weeks I looked it up and realised he was constipated and needed medication. It took 1-2 months to clear the constipation, that was about 3 months ago and he is mostly okay but still the odd day will soil himself so it can take a long time for things to work through.

I would say that given that he CAN do it (are you certain that he does feel the 'I need a wee' signal? Then it is about control. You need to give the control to him.
A couple of ideas which might work. They do depend on you really allowing him to control it though.
-Get him to set a timer, or use a sand timer eg for 1 hour. So he is in control, and sets the timer, and when it goes he goes for a wee.
-Ask him when does HE think he needs a wee most, (make it clear that HE can decide when to wee) and then make a picture of that, so eg a picture for getting out of bed and for snack time etc. You could add other things to this and make it a timetable fo the day. then you avoid asking if he has weed and instead ask him if he has done the next thing on his timetable.

By the way, for a child who has dug their heels in like this, reward charts rarely work. They tend not to work for autistic kids either. But crossing tasks to be done off a list, or having a timer that they are in charge of, do often work better.

Can you give him the choice of what would work? Just ask, "So chocolate buttons don't help you to remember to use the toilet, what would?"

When I say control, it isn't control of his body. It is control of what is happening in his day, if that makes sense.

@Tavannach

Can you give him the choice of what would work? Just ask, "So chocolate buttons don't help you to remember to use the toilet, what would?"

He says 'not using the toilet, I don't like using the toilet.' :s

@steppemum

I would say that given that he CAN do it (are you certain that he does feel the 'I need a wee' signal? Then it is about control. You need to give the control to him. A couple of ideas which might work. They do depend on you really allowing him to control it though. -Get him to set a timer, or use a sand timer eg for 1 hour. So he is in control, and sets the timer, and when it goes he goes for a wee. -Ask him when does HE think he needs a wee most, (make it clear that HE can decide when to wee) and then make a picture of that, so eg a picture for getting out of bed and for snack time etc. You could add other things to this and make it a timetable fo the day. then you avoid asking if he has weed and instead ask him if he has done the next thing on his timetable.

By the way, for a child who has dug their heels in like this, reward charts rarely work. They tend not to work for autistic kids either. But crossing tasks to be done off a list, or having a timer that they are in charge of, do often work better.

He always says he doesn't need a wee, even if he's jumping around to try and stop himself. I used a watch once with him and I really thought he would take to it. I programmed it to play a tune every 2 hours to signal it was time for a wee and he still said no, I'm too busy mummy, I'm just doing x,y,z. He just sees going to the toilet as a big waste of time, even though he's experienced that accidents are an even bigger waste of time, but that never seems to bother him.

He does want us to play with him constantly and we do play with him alot so perhaps it's just another way of getting our full attention?

Hi. How did you get up getting on? I’m in the exact same position with my son and nothing is getting through to him. He starts school in September and I’m so worried.

Our DGS is the same. Four in a couple of months and has simply refused to engage with potty training at all right from the start.

His DPs decided some time ago that it was pointless their continuing to try and they would leave him to pick it up from the other DC at nursery. Nothing doing. He is the only DC in his room still in nappies. He seems quite happy. His DPs are getting desperate.