4 year old poos in nappy - do I bluff to his future school?

[1BunOldie]

Argh! Help! To my son I'm pretend I'm calm but he starts school in September and will only poo in a nappy. He will wee on a toilet happily (we have integrated child/adult seats). He hangs on until he's home from nursery to poo. He tells me he is scared that the poo will come out over the top of the loo and him. I am panicking because I understand that school can ask you defer if not potty trained. His future school have asked us to fill in forms; there is a question asking whether he is potty trained. Should I bluff or confess? We have tried everything that we know might work: bribery with sweets and a trip to Hamley's toy shop when he succeeds; nappy in a potty to catch the poo; explaining that the poo will not touch him. Advice gratefully received.

Thanks StressHead - he is a big fan - I'll find it on iPlayer

My son is 4 years old - same situation. No poos on loo. Most pees in loo. Wears pull up pants to nursery. Has anyone actually tried this cold turkey approach with taking away all the nappies, or just from hearsay. I want to try this drastic method but only if there is a reasonable probability of success. Thanks.

I think you would very probably greatly distress your child and would risk him holding the poo in, causing constipation and pain. Of course, it could work (only you know your son) but it could go the other way. Realise some parents are into the "just throw them in and they'll soon swim" approach (so you'll get different answers) but I'm not! I believe a child should be ready for their developments rather than pushed. Has the school told you they won't wipe?

A pp had a good point about some people choose to hold it in whilst at work, school etc. My DS is in that camp I discovered recently - he is nearly 17 and has never had a poo anywhere except at home, his grandparents house or on holiday. He refuses to go at school or in public loos because he can't relax enough to go.

Perhaps your son will be one of this group and it won't be a problem before he feels happier about using the toilet.

Still think more distressing for a child to be teased and isolated at school because the parents haven't bothered to teach him to reach normal developmental milestones. Children with marked SEN is a different issue but normal healthy children should not be put in position of going to school in nappies. Absolutely ridiculous that he'll be distressed if you make him use the loo. It's a normal part of growing up and incredibly unfair on school to land them with this. Would you say it doesn't matter if he chooses not to talk? No, you'd do something about it. Would you say it's fine if he can't get himself changed for PE? No, you'd teach him to dress and undress himself before he starts big school. Using the lavatory is no different but you're making it a big deal for him. You won't be told but he will be teased and then you'll be complaining about bullying.
I did cold turkey with my neice. We were out when they were staying with us - a huge gathering of grandparents and aunts/uncles etc. She started whining about tummy ache after we'd just arrived at theme park. Her mother wanted us all to go home because she clearly needed the lavatory but only went in a nappy behind the sofa?? I thought it hugely unfair to all the other children and said she needed to be taken to the lavatory. My SIL asked me to take her as she might get upset if she took her. I took her with cousin of same age who went for a wee. I sat child on loo and said you need to do a pooh. She said she wanted a nappy/her mother I said no we're staying here until you've been and then we'll go back to mummy and get an ice cream. She produced the goods. We all cheered. She went back to mummy and chose an ice cream. We all cheered again. She's never had nappies back on and never had any accidents. You just have to decide that it's unkind to keep a school age child in nappies deliberately.

Ridiculous levels of anger!

Why do some children really resist the loo? Is it was worry if falling in or something (like a snake or rat) coming up the pipe and grabbing their bottom?

DS had an issue with potties. He would not use one for love nor money. No idea why.

Those of you who say 'just train him' - and what if the 'no more nappies' doesn't work? I'm reading this with interest as I have a 3.2 year old DS who will not use the toilet or potty at home (for wees either). Doesn't matter whether he has a nappy or pants on, just wees in them. Doesn't care about being wet. Denies it if asked and will kick and scream if you insist on changing him. Unmoved by rewards, cross mummy, talk of big boys etc. Every day we talk about doing wees in the potty or toilet but he just doesn't care. Is 90% trained at nursery though - wears pants to nursery and most days has no accidents.

Sorry to derail thread but I can see this being us in a year's time. We have been training for over 6 months now with virtually no progress and I am so depressed about the 'NT 3 year olds should be dry' brigade.

Maybe nursery make him go at regular times rather than waiting to be asked? Maybe it's the expectation that they'll ask to go that is the problem. In my experience that comes a little after training them to go at set points - hourly initially and then stretching time.

1bunoldie - a bit surprised at your dismissive attitude and willingness to disadvantage your child so deliberately. Sad for child that they are likely to face problems and hang ups that are unnecessary. Sometimes 'fluffy, loveliness and going with the flow' is actually quite cruel. Sometimes parenting means imposing norms.

I've tried the 'taking him at regular intervals' - he kicks and screams and refuses at home!

Same position here, my son 4 will not poo unless wearing a pull up and holds in when he's at nursery. A few months ago I got frustrated and tried to really encourage him to use the loo. He ended up with severe constipation and we had to go to gp for movicol. He seems frightened of doing it on the toilet, though will occasionally do one in the potty. Everyone is different but personally I'm going to let my son find his own way with this, as the tough method hasn't worked for us.

Does he have a sit down wee? Try giving him an iPad and an episode of fave tv show or a game he loves. I can't get my 5 yr old off the loo when he has it. That will get him used to sitting for longer periods where he is calm and relaxed, without any 'harm' coming to him.

My oldest didn't have quite the same issues but was quite resistant to pooing especially away from home. Saying just take away the nappies and make them go is fine, but you can't actually force someone to poo and children can do themselves harm by withholding. DS once went 5 days without doing a poo because we were away from home!

He's never done a poo at school/nursery. We had to get in a routine (using a combination of lactulose and bribery!) of pooing every night before bed.

Anway, I wouldn't panic too much - I'm sure you can sort it by September.

Came on to say same suggestion as StressHead The Do You Know toilet episode was really good at explaining how toilets work!

If you're concerned about poos containment in underpants, training pants are good for keeping it 'in' - no nasties sliding down trouser legs! We used Bambino Mios.

Re: "just take away the nappies" - we did that about 6 months ago. Now my 3 and a half year old just poos in his pants. Every sodding day. For 6 sodding months. He never mentions that he needs a poo; if we catch him at it and put him on the loo he immediately ceases pooing, and finishes later when no-ones looking. We have tried reward charts and have a big toy lined up for him, but that hasn't worked as motivation. I've tried getting cross with him, but that didn't help either. I'm at my wits end. Luckily he has a Sept birthday so not quite in the same situation as you OP, but you have my sympathies.

Your son is very unlikely to be the only one in this situation. The school will be supportive if they can see you are trying which it seems you are. He will get it one day and if you are lucky before he starts school.

Would perhaps showing him him poo going down the toilet help, so he could watch as you tip the poo from his nappy into the toilet. That way he can see it won't overflow.

What do you do with the pooh in his nappy?
Can you flush it down the loo with him every time. show him it doesn't ever make the water go up.
Then stretch a nappy out under the seat to catch the pooh as he sits on the seat and let him get off before tipping it out. work up to it slowly. Has he any friends that come to play? being aware that they pooh in the loo and do so without worry may help to. especially if they are younger.

My daughter was 4 and also would only poo in a pull up (she had constipation issues as well). I started off putting a pull up on in the bathroom and getting her to do a poo in a pull up in the bathroom, then gradually went closer to the toilet. Then it was massive reward for sitting on the toilet WITH a pull up on to poo. Once she could do that I cut a hole in a load of pull ups, and when she needed a poo put her pull up on, got her to sit on the loo to do a poo, and then afterwards I got her to look in the loo and see her poo. These were her special poo pants - only had to do that a few times and then she said she would try without the poo pants. Had it cracked in a couple of weeks. Good luck OP.

Dd had a fear of it. I treated it in the way you would a phobia, ie. Gently getting them used to it in stages. Started off sitting on the potty with a nappy on to poo . = reward. Then with the side of the nappy torn, then both sides torn, then laid open, then on the loo, then pushed down the loo a bit (fished out afterwards.) It worked well and she cracked it.

I see Mayor took a similar approach that worked.

The problem with trying to go cold turkey is they can end up with longer term problems of them withholding it/becoming constipated etc.

Do you go to the toilet in front of him, sitting on it completely casually while chatting might help it sink in for him what a non-event it is.

I can see why things like toilets can be scary in a small child's eyes, I had some sort of fear of it too when I was younger but not sure what it specifically was. I know it sounds grim but maybe he needs to get more familiar with the loo by facing it? Perhaps he could help you scrub it and you could discuss how it works, making a point of the direction of the water (so he knows nothing's going to come 'up' to him which is what he sounds nervous about) and flushing it a few times so he gets desensitised to the sound and sees what's happening while he's in control.
I would suggest using a toy/doll to demonstrate pooping and get DS to 'show them' how it's done, but then I suppose we don't want anything falling inside and causing more worry!!

Sort of agree with some of the quite harsh advice, although I'm sympathetic too as my youngest would not poo on the potty for love nor money!
But you know what, part of being a parent is teaching our children things that will equip them with skills that last a lifetime. Teaching your child to sleep and teaching them to use the toilet are so so important that I'm of the view that you need to very strict with it, children NEED sleep to grow, to learn, they NEED to use the toilet, it's a non negotiable to me.
Remember too that children are very very good at talking themselves out of things, they genuinely think they cannot do a lot of things, this is where you come in, you don't and you shouldn't believe that, children are capable of anything I feel they're shown how to do it and you give them the faith and the confidence that you believe they can.
So every time he says he can't poo on the toilet and you then take him off the toilet you're simply reinforcing his belief that he can't do it, so in his head he thinks 'i can't do it, I'm too scared and mummy thinks I can't do it either that's why she doesn't make me'
You sit him on the toilet, you dig down next to him, you stay calm, you chat, but you make it very clear that from now on pooing will only happen on the toilet, it's not up for discussion, it's what big boys do who are going to school.
Pussy footing around him, letting him make the decisions, decide if he can or can't do it is not what parenting is about.
It's not fair on him, and it's not fair on the teacher who went to university to get a degree, to leave the other 29 children in the class so he/she can change your 4 year old child's nappy, because you didn't want to be firm. You are allowing this fear to gather pace instead of nipping it in the bud.

hi, i was just having a little read at your post and honestly the best thing I found on the web was three hour video by a girl that runs a day care. definitely helped me! here is a link tinyurl.com/ybferhay
hope this help