Never tells us that he needs to go!

[L0zza]

DS is just 3 and this is my second attempt at training him. The first attempt was when he was 2 and 11 months - he showed all the signs of being ready, but after a promising start when he'd eagerly wee and poo at our suggestion, he took against the whole thing and would refuse to sit on the potty so we took a break. Now we're on attempt 2. I have now been training him for a month and he reckons he understands that wees and poos go in the potty or toilet and not the pants. He is perfectly willing to sit on the potty and the toilet, and squeezes out wee or poo with enthusiasm. He gets a choc button as a reward when he does do something in the potty. The only problem is that he has never told us that he wants to go, and if I don't remind him, he just wees and poos in his pants and rarely mentions that he's wet or dirty. In fact he'd happily sit in his own poo or wee for hours as I tested him one day and 1 hour later, he was still completely unfazed by this!! After an accident, I say "Where do wees and poos go?" and he says "In the potty!". I tell him that he will get a sticker on a chart if he says "Poo coming!" etc and if he gets 4 stickers, I will take him to his favourite place, the ice cream parlour. Still no progress. A few times, he has gone off to hide and do a poo so I suspect he knows when one is coming, he just doesn't want to do it in the potty. I have no idea about whether he knows in advance that the wee is coming. How can I get him to start telling me that he needs to go? Plerase help, I feel as if I have been potty training him for years and am in despair!!

I'd take away the potty and take him into the toilet with you. show him where you poo and show him the poo. Talk the whole way through the process, say you can feel the poo in your tummy then you say it wants to come out.
Then say you do a wee squeeze and it comes out..then hurrah!!much clapping and say that it feels much better!! repeat till he gets it.. my ds took about 4months to train. I thought i was going to die!it was soooooo long and everyone kept saying really obvious things like.."they just dont like the feeling" well this wasnt the case for my ds, he would happily sit with a big shitty bum and not care.
i know this is really descriptive but try and get everyone in the house to do it and even if possible granny etc when they come to stay. I found when ds realised that everyone done it he was more inclined to do it as well. Hope this helps...and make a big deal when he does it as in..whoop cheer,run round the room and jump up and down, the more dramatic the better!
x

Why the rush? I know he's 3 but if he's not telling you then I wouldn't say he is ready tbh. You could carry on as you are taking him at reg intervals but if he isn't bothered about it then I wouldn't put yourself through it, he will train when he is ready imo. But it's up to you

Agree with everything Clara said too btw. I think it is important for them to realise everyone else does it, it's normal and a big boy thing to do.

Thanks everyone - great advice. @LovemyGirls - Tempting! I would knock it on the head as I really do feel I am getting nowhere, but I am aware that I have started, stopped and then restarted the training already, and I am worried that he won't know if he is coming or going if I stop it again now. I really do feel as though I must see it through to the bitter end this time. Well, that's if I can stand it for much longer! I will try the in-depth explanation that you suggested @Clarabumps and show him that everyone does it. Hopefully that will work as I am my wits end! Thanks so much both of you for taking the time to give me advice.

I agree Lozza, I would certainly not stop now as that will create confusion & even, perhaps, distress. To be honest (as much as I understand why you did it) I think much of the confusion might have to do (this is just a thought, might not be the case) with the fact that you stopped first time round. I really think the starting & stopping (particularly at the age of your DS) doesn't help things, even though I know many people do this.

You didn't tell us, how long has it been since this second attempt? More than a couple of weeks?

i really wanted to give up and just stop till he was ready but ds was starting nursery and he had to be trained for antipreschool. i started at the easter holidays and he got it in september, it was REALLY long, but i just felt that had i left it to my son(just because of his personality) he would have happily went to school in nappies.

I tried a couple of times before but gave it a few days then gave in..and to be honest i dont think i realised how long it would take for him to get it and i didnt realise that i had to watch him like a hawk. No mean feat when you have another ds to watch.

there is light at the end of the tunnel though and he will get there, but i totally feel your pain, it was my hardest stage of parenting so far(i know this isnt the same for everyone)
xx

Do other people have 3 year olds who (anything like reliably)tell them when they need to go? TBH I think you're hoping for a bit too much too soon.

At this young age I think you really do need to keep asking him at regular intervals for wees, hopefully with poos there's more predictable times like after meals.

I think that this idea of 'being ready' which lots of mums seem to rely on is not what most people think it means. Being ready doesn't mean they won't have accidents, it also doesn't mean it'll necessarily be an easy developmental process. I agree with Grimma, most 3 year olds need reminding once in a while, particularly when they're engrossed in an activity, eg playing with other children etc. Being reminded doesn't mean they're not ready. They just need help to master this new skill with lots of toddlers find hard. I strongly disagree with the idea of waiting for that magical point in the future when it'll all happen with no difficulty whatsoever. Ordinary development involves difficulties & back & forth steps, too.

Thanks again everyone. @Grimma, I can only speak from my own experience - my daughter was not that easy to train but she would say she needed to do a wee or poo at around 2 years and 10 months, and she was by no means the first of her peers to do so. That's not to say she didn't have the odd accident or need to be reminded when as you say, she was engrossed, which is fine. But DS has never ever said he wants to do wee or poo and will always wet if I don't remind him. I know it depends on the child, and DS is obviously not quite there yet - I am just after tips on how to progress to the stage where he does say "Wee coming!" etc. @Maria, we have been at it this time for a month. Seems like years! I stopped the first attempt at training because it got the the point where he'd throw a fit if you even mentioned the word potty and short of grappling him down onto the potty - which of course I didn't! - we just shut up about the whole thing. We hadn't got anywhere with it anyway. The good thing is that he was perfectly willing to sit on the potty after a 2 week break and he seems happy enough. @Clarabumps - thanks for the tips and the TLC - it's good to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Why do you disagree with waiting for that 'magical point' Maria? It does happen - my DS was clean and dry within 3 days at just over three. He's only wet himself a couple of times since then, when he's massively engrossed in something.

I don't see the point of making it so stressful personally. It's not a battle of wills is it? That seems to me what doggedly pursuing it when you're making no progress is about.

LOzza - from my experience you were lucky with your DD

I disagree, LadyBiscuit, because for some children, while it's not a battle of wills, it can certainly be a challenge & that's not a bad thing. I always assumed from what I've read & from what I hear from friends that potty training is relatively stressful but hopefully doesn't last that long (the stress, I mean).

I'm not talking about a battle of wills at all by the way, I'm simply talking about a child being normally ambivalent about the whole thing & being helped with their ambivalence, rather than just being told 'you're not ready yet, back to nappies'.

I think going back & forth- starting with the potty, then stopping & going back to nappies- may potentially create confusion & discouragement for the child & may even contribute to making it harder the next time around.

If I judge from my case study of 1 child (my own DS) he really didn't like the whole thing for the first week or so, got scared of the potty, didn't want to go anywhere near it. And yet he insisted on wearing 'big boy pants' & not going back into nappies (we did ask). We tried all sorts of different things to help him, without giving up, & for a while nothing worked... but by the 10th day, he had taken to the potty like a fish to the sea. But I tell you it wasn't easy until that 10th day & I got quite a bit of advice from friends saying to go back in nappies which I strongly felt was not a good idea at all for my DS & I suspect (I may be wrong) for most people, as it gives very confused messages & implies that the parent doesn't have faith in their ability to master this new skill.

My DS was 2.6 by the way.

But you're not mastering this new skill Maria, your son is :o

I tried for over three weeks because people told me it would be confusing if I went back blah blah blah but he really wasn't ready. In his head he was but the body wasn't following through.

Like I said, I stopped and tried again when he asked at just over three. Sorted in a few days.

I think probably with a test case of one each, neither you nor I are particularly qualified to say what works best - just what was best for us as mothers and our children. :)

New skills are mastered gradually, with the help of parents, & with the acceptance of back & forths. This idea of a child being one day 'ready' & there being no struggle & no process (for the child and/or the parent) is illusory & IMO problematic on many levels. And it actually permeates lots of widely accepted notions on parenthood nowadays that I feel are deeply misguided.

at your grand theory of child development, Maria. Children do need to be ready, it's not just parents who decide when is best to potty train. Powering through, regardless of the child's aptitude for potty training, could be far more damaging than going back to nappies. Plus, it's really irritating to tell the OP that she shouldn't have put her DS back in nappies, and that she's probably contributed to his confusion! I put DS1 back in nappies after 10 days of PT as we'd literally run out of dry clothes, and he wanted to wear nappies rather than pants! You can't force a child to want to wee in a potty FFS.

OP, I think your DS is doing really well as he is and may not ask for a while.

I agree, don't despair...kids don't have the heural pathways to be able to predict their movements as it were, until a certain point.

this is documented somewhere in research.

First they recognise when they are wet/have done a poo.
then they notice when they are doing it and the sensation that comes with it.

then later they begin to recognise the sensations that come just before it happens, but not soon enough to be able to control it.

It's only at the last step in development of this process that they actually recognise the wee or poo approaching, and are able to control the muscles for long enough to shout 'I need a weeeee!!!' and dash to the potty, sometimes making it on time, sometimes not.

You can't encourage this process with sweets, it happens by itself.

Using punishment, rewards etc isn't worth doing and can make your child feel bad for something they cannot control.

It happens - mine were at roughly three to three and a decent half before they totally got it, but when it happened there was no going back.

Some kids do it sooner, but this is a totally normal age.

So please don't worry or panic, you're not going to have a nappy dependant adult on your hands.

Neural - sorry not heural! Ds2 climbs on me when I type.

Oh and we have had VERY FEW Accidents.

I think sometimes parents can set themselves up for a lot of grief and worry, mistakenly believing it's up to them to train their child - this isn't true or necessary, they will learn by themselves and it's not about putting them in nappies when they want to try pants, etc, it's about giving them the choice, really. And preempting accidents by reminding them every half hour or hour if they need a wee - well that can be done at times, as can putting on a nappy or training pants just in case - but it is a journey of back and forth, progress, regression, whatever. It's natural.

It shouldn't be a big deal. It certainly wasn't for us - pre school tried to make it a bit of a bigger deal than it was by asking me to put him in pants, as I presume they thought I was holding him back deliberately - he was apparently happy to be changed into pants when he got there. But every morning he chose a nappy despite my encouragement to wear pants.

It was up to him and I wasn't going to make a fuss about it. He just responded differently to different settings.

I never talked about parents deciding when the right moment is with no input from the children, and I certainly never talked about 'powering through', ignoring the child's needs & circumstances.

What I did say is that sometimes it's a good idea for the parents to accept that development involves backs & forths- and yes, sometimes lots of accidents-, and that encouragement needs to be given despite progress being slow.

Potty training is not just a physical process. It's also an psychological, emotional process & achievement & children need lots of encouragement & support & yes, acceptance of accidents, sometime for a long time if need be. Those are my thoughts anyway. I'm just offering ideas.

As for the 'right time', well I'm sure that from 2 and a half onwards all children are physically 'ready'. Psychologically ready is another story & that's where some children need encouragement more than others. Those children are not helped by parents giving up after a couple of weeks of accidents. I really really don't believe that any 3 year old is not physically ready for potty training.

(unless there are special needs involved).

Well you're wrong, Maria, I know some very normal 3 year olds who don't have physical control yet. I'd love to know where you get your source of information from, as it seems to be just an opinion which could upset people who perceive you are talking from facts.

Children who have difficulties & back & forths in potty training are also completely normal.

Maria, is this based on opinion? Can you just clarify that for us please?

Because I really don't agree with your opinion. I've seen you write in this style before on here and it bothered me back then as well.

You should not be so dogmatic unless you can back it up.

Here, here, Ingrid.

Is having an opinion being dogmatic? I don't think so. Also how would you like me to 'back up' my opinion? By research studies? By books? By stating my profession?I don't think lists of books is what MN is about, I think it's about open debate.

Just to clarify again (although I think some of you are fighting straw men). I think the vast majority of 2.5-3 year olds are physically ready for potty training. Being physically ready however does not equal being psychologically ready or free from ambivalence about the whole thing. Which is where parents can help, with patience, encouragement, discussion- whatever it takes. And with having a clear expectation of the child, that they are there to gradually & gently encourage their development (in this case through potty training). I don't believe leaving it to the child to decide completely on their own is wise, as I also don't think the parent should ignore the child's signals.

Having ambivalence about something (eg potty training which signifies a huge step in growing up) is not the same as not being ready. It's a process, not a moment.

And yes, that's my opinion. I don't see why having an opinion is a problem? I respect the opinions on others but I can disagree,no?

I simply don't believe