April 2009 - Chapter 3 - Let us round up the stragglers

[PuzzleRocks]

Ta da.

Right, I'm going to do a 6 page catch up. I think that's all I can manage, sorry.

God, no wonder I have PND. Am I the only one who's still feeding every 2 hours between 6am & 9pm? & every 3 hours through the night? Really? It's never been any different (actually, he used to feed every 2 hours through the night, too) apart from TWO nights when he slept 12 - 6 for no apparent reason. Please tell me I'm not the only one. Especially not now his weight gain has pretty much stopped & has for 8 weeks now. I blame DH's metabolism.

Actually, the more I read, the more I realise that some of you have cluster feeding to contend with. Generally George just feeds for 10 or 15 minutes, so I suppose that could be worse.

Sorry that my absence worried some of you! I've been fine, really. Not fantastic, but okay. Good point about Kitty especially, though - has she even been on since her birth announcement?

George doesn't even really have an attention seeking cry. He's developed a fake cough instead, because he learnt that choking meant that he got picked up to be patted on the back. It's not even vaguely convincing, bless him.

Oh Boff, so sorry to hear about your experience with flu. How awful. No wonder you're scared xx I'll hate Dr X for you. Dead wife or no.

Schulte, you said one of DD1's friends got rubella despite the MMR? I got a mild form of mumps a couple of years ago despite it too. It makes me a bit about the jab.

We still have George in our room, too. He's moved up into his crib from his moses basket, but still fits reasonably well - he sleeps with his hands by his face, not sprawled out. Although once he's awake he's very punchy, as I've found out when co-sleeping. We'll transfer him when he needs the cot, as we can't fit it in our room. Until then he's waking so often there's no point in moving him anyway.

Ju, how frustrating that your dad's so insensitive about the BFing / weight gain thing. It's amazing how unsupportive people can be about BFing. I adore my parents & they're massively supportive about pretty much everything, but they still jump at opportunities to question the wisdom of BFing. I've not yet told them about my PND, but I can guarantee that I'll get a load of 'well you have been insisting on being solely responsible for his feeding...' & so on.

brett, I'm not suggesting that you should, but are you aware of relactation? Women can produce milk at any time (so can men, actually!) with enough stimulation. It's a very hard slog, I believe, but entirely possible. If you really are determined to 'try and go back' to BFing, I think you can. They talk about it a fair bit on the feeding boards. As I say, I'm not sure that it'd be helpful to you / how hard it would be, but I'd hate for you to later say 'if only I'd known...' IYSWIM?

Bleu, Meg seems so clever! I'll be having words with George

Kali, I've not even heard vitamin D drops mentioned until you did.

Thank you to everyone who's been lovely about my PND (I'd expect nothing less ) - it makes so much difference knowing you're all here. I know I've not been around much, but I'm hoping that it'll get easier to join in the general discussion now & I can be One Of You again.

BB, that sounds scary about Kara not breathing. I suppose that the worst that could happen is that he'd faint & then automatically start breathing again. Obviously not fun for you, but nothing to get too panicked about. & don't be silly - you'd have sorted it out yourself, you just had a few second to freak out & someone else came along before you had a chance to get your head in gear. Next time (if there is one) you won't need the thinking time.

Hmm, the mention of ovulation. I was convinced about 3 weeks ago that I was ovulating. It would've been the right time, too. & now nothing... The little sex we have had has been with condoms & we've not noticed a mishap. I did a pregnancy test this morning out of fear & got a negative. I should feel totally relaxed as I know it's exceptionally unlikely & I got a negative, but all I can think is that I was on the pill this time last year & got a load of negatives after my late period Does anyone have any suggestions as to where my egg may have gone? I know it's possible that I didn't actually ovulate, but it would be my second period & made sense to be at that time. Argh. I'd better not be.

Schulte, George poos quite a lot - sometimes very liquid (we call it Bum Gravy [boak]) & sometimes bubbly. I wouldn't say 'frothy', but perhaps it starts off that way & dies down after a few minutes? Gosh, that sounds like terrible parenting. Just he poos over a few sessions for 5-10 minutes so we tend to leave him for that time unless he's upset by it. Usually he carries on playing happily until he's done.

Boff, I'm intrigued about this amazing orgasm news. I'm hopeful I was reading the side effect section of the leaflet & found no mention of that! I did get worried that I may be afflicted with a painful erection, though

Welcome to JumeirahJane! Don't feel for joining - in fact try not to feel around here for anything. It can get a bit... raucous.

Speaking of people from far away, I wonder how Barbarella is?

Bleu, make sure you complain about the missed post. We had this a lot but after a few phonecalls it miraculously doesn't happen anymore.

Bicnod, sorry things aren't good there xx The reason Puzzle was asking is discussed a little more thoroughly on the group itself, I think. You'll be able to read it now (when you can get on!) It's difficult to explain here IYSWIM.

poor you Bicnod. Hope tomorrow goes better.

Oooo Springy marathon catch up! You're always so good...me I just say sorry, tough beans, I'm lazy. I am going to complain. and I think I'm going to bring a screaming baby into the depot too just for effect and maybe I should not wash my hair tomorrow either... Then I'll look like medusa

To be fair, I have little better to do. DH is on his laptop & George is between feeds. Well, there's plenty else to do, but it all involves getting off the sofa

Besides, you're all always lovely to me, so I don't want to be too behind

Ooh, yes. Go for the harassed mother look. 'I've got more than enough to contend with without chasing you up' sort of thing. Who was it? Royal Mail? You can get stuff redelivered if it's not very urgent & complain by phone? It depends how difficult it'll be for you to go in person, I guess.

hello sorry for bad typing - e asleep on my hand.

springy you are fantastic. here's to better times for you and everyone else having tough times. if it helps, e feeds fairly frequntly and cluster feeds for hours most evenings. you are not alone.

jumeirahjane i'm a new girl too -hello.

re poos e had the runs for ages as a tiny baby - it was tiny amounts allthe time and often foamy. he had the devil's own nappy rash and i went through a 35 pack of nappies every 24 hours but otherwise he ws totally fine.

am totally freaking about swine flu this evening thanks to channel4 news and the risks edmund runs and me to a lesserextent as last pregnancy seems to have turned my asthma bad again.

Bicnod - Of course you are welcome. Good to have you on board.
I see Springy has explained already. Ta Springs.

Aww, schucks MrsG

These babies really do fall asleep in the strangest places, don't they? Sorry you're so worried I have my fingers & toes crossed that you'll all avoid it. Metaphorically, obviously. Typing would be very difficult otherwise.

& no problem, Puzzle. You probably do enough of our organisation & admin to not have to thank me for such simple explanations

Springy - I'm still feeding every 2 hours, if not more. Last time I saw a HV she asked how often he fed and I said a vague 'every 2-3 hours', as I wasn't really sure. So she suggested to try offering every 2 hours, in a clock-watching fashion. Well, when watching the clock I realised that we rarely ever made it to the next 2 hour mark! It's difficult though, as there is rarely a clear feed period. It's 'start eating, munch a bit, have a really good drink, doze off, have a good drink again, doze off for half an hour with nipple in mouth, mumping occasionally, wake up and drink again' etc. I'm not sure that HV understands this. And, I assume that 'feeding every 2 hours' means from start of feed to start of feed, rather than end of last one to start of next one?

Now, have I made up there being guidelines that LOs should be in your room until 6 months? I thought had read it somewhere, but never seen anyone else mention it. He's staying in with us regardless, as the co-sleeping is so fab for bfing, and I'm a big fan of the idea that babies should nap/ sleep wherever you are (though actually napping/ sleeping on you is taking it a bit too far).

We had a bum gravy one yesterday. It was incredible. Also, find that the 'shaving foam' type ones are more noticeable if you are there at the moment of, or shortly after, production. The bubbles dissipate after a while!

SPringy K feeds every 2-3 hours in the day - he had got up to 3-4 hours but is back down now and at night he feeds at 8, 11pm, 1, 4.30 and 6.30am - am hoping it's the heat over here but gah yes I am still on lots of feeding but he is only on for 5 or 10 minutes then he just chews and plays or lets got himself!

Hello Jumeirahjane welcome! we - (and by we, I mean me) are a nosey lots so tell us ALL about yourself, your LO and the birth etc!

Oooh nappies - K has about 5-8 pooey nappies a day - always has - they are quite a lot bigger over here but put that down to him eating more!!

Holy mackerel!

Holly had a dream feed at 11pm and didn't stir until 6.15am.
That would have been a night's unbroken sleep were it not for my little monkey Ellen wanting a cuddle at 1am. Still, not a bad night really.

The lightning and thunder were pretty special last night. My gardens are looking a lot less parched.

Holly is due her second jabs this morning. I do hope it doesn't affect her the like H & H. How are they this morning?

BB - When do you come home?

Ju - We love co-sleeping. I have said before, we will probably keep Holly in with us until she is five.

Morning All

I cant remember who it was that asked but at 16 weeks we still have Violet in our room with us. Just to make you all feel better I will also admit that at 21 months we still Oscar in with us as well!

Juw yes, it is recommended to have the baby in your room at night till six months - I think it is FSIDS guidance.

We moved DS1 (whose name is Philip BTW - it seems odd to name Edmund and then say DS1 all the time) when he was about 8 months but he came in to cosleep as soon as he woke up (after we'd gone ot bed - at that age we were up and down the stairs all evening as well so he wasn't really on his own for ages after that)

Few things to start off - Sam isn't going into his own room until 6 months at the earliest. I know that should be 24 weeks but I'm going with calendar months. And if I can't handle it he'll stay in a bit longer Anyone says PFB and I'll brain them - I hate that expression! Who do we think we descended from? Parents who let their babies do whatever or the careful check a lot type?

Am thinking of bringing the dream feed back - may have to express for a few nights to get the milk levels up for it but hopefully it will mean a sleep right through I highly doubt it as my little man is stubborn about being woke up

Now for my shameless x-post rant - I don't do it often put up with it

Sam is 12 weeks old, in that time dp's family have done the following for us:

Did you see anything there? That's because they've done nothing. I have no family anywhere near me. We are relatively new to the area. My best friend has a 10 month and 5 year old. We have NO support network. SIL came around yesterday, as soon as she got in the house she was making excuses up about how much she had to do that day, this included looking after her friends child, her friedn lives a 5 minute walk away from us and SIL visits this friend at least once a week. It was recently dp's birthday, his sister asked him what he wanted (he got cash of me and Sam because he wants a flat screen tv and was short about the amount that we would have spent on a present anyway, he loved that!) DP told her he wanted some cleaning and the lawn mowing, SIL is broke and on benefits this would have cost her nothing. When she came round it was the second time in 12 weeks, dp has been round on numerous occasions to help her out and we've been over at least 6 times to see her during this time. She asked me what dp wanted for a present, she said dp had mentioned 'some rubbish' about wanting some cleaning and the lawn doing. I told her that's exactly what he wants. DP was working locally yesterday and came home for lunch whilst she was here, she asked him again what he wanted and he repeated cleaning and the lawn mowing. SIL then said she couldn't do it this week but could next week - she knows dp is off for 2 weeks next week so dp said not to bother until after the holidays. I think she is hoping he forgets - good job he's got a fabulous Tigga with the memory of an elephant to remind him. I couldn't help myself as she was leaving I mentioned that we were doing this with absolutely no support from anyone it was in response to something she'd said. When SIL had her children she was constantly at her mothers (dp's mum doesn't drive) in the first 6 months of getting nephew home (he was VERY prem) she spent exactly one day at home and couldn't cope. When neice was born she did exactly the same thing and neice was born at full term.

I am SO annoyed at them, not for me for dp. It wouldn't kill his sister to ring up and say I'm coming into your town can I pick you up anything, she knows I'd pay her the money there and then, which reminds me she still owes dp some cash. It's like a kick in the teeth to dp when he will go and help her out but she won't do anything to help him. She's such a selfish person ARGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!

VeryAnnoyedTiggaxx

PS I feel much better having got that off my chest my normal drivel will now resume.

Ju, I'm hugely sympathetic to your constant feeding (& slightly relieved that it's not just me!). I too measure from start of feed to start of feed. George tends to be a fairly efficient feeder now, so we have less of the messing about. But he does demand milk like clockwork - you could often quite literally set your watch by his feeds & be no more than five minutes out by the end of the day

I've also read about the 6 months guidelines, but know that it's not practical for a lot of people. As I said, for example, if he becomes too big for his crib, he'll need to move into his cot. I can't co-sleep with him on a permanent / regular basis because he punches me awake & DH takes up too much room for me to be comfortable. It's more disruptive than his talking to himself at all hours.

BB, it probably is just the heat, don't worry. It must be pretty exhausting for you to be so hot & constantly feeding, though.

Tigga, I can see both sides, to be honest I'm speaking as someone without a support network too (both of our families are 200 miles away in opposite directions & I have no local friends), & a DH who's been difficult to say the least. So I truly do understand the longing for someone who could offer to fetch a loaf of bread & drop it by, etc. Never mind looking after the baby for a short while!

Do DP & his sister get on? Is there any reason she wouldn't feel welcome in your home?

To be very honest (I hope I don't offend you here) I can see why she's reluctant to do the cleaning / lawn mowing. Whilst I can see the sense in it from both sides, I can see that maybe she would find it degrading doing that for her brother? Especially as you say she's on benefits & from that I assume that you're not? Perhaps she's already embarrassed that her brother's got a 'better' life than her & doesn't want to do his menial tasks?

I don't know the people involved & I'm sure that there are at least elements in which YANBU. But I can see what is possibly her side of the story, too. How old are her children? Is she still struggling to cope? Please don't judge her for retreating home. We're doing this all on our own too, but if I had the opportunity to basically move back in with my parents, I would. In fact I think I'm going to visit my parents this afternoon for a couple of nights just because I can't deal with the sound of George whining all day because he's teething & I know they'll help out. I could cope on my own in so far as we'd all survive the day & George would be well looked after. But I'm already on ADs & struggling emotionally, IYSWIM. You shouldn't judge her on that, because you don't know the full story. (For example I'm a lot more ill than I've let on to anyone, to be honest).

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant in itself. I hope I didn't cause any offence xx

Dawntigga That whole situation must be soooo frustrating! I can totally sypathise with having to do everything on your own because we live so far away from our families - it isn't easy at all. Can you have a proper word with your DH's family? or maybe he could?

Springy Good to hear from you again. A is permanently stuck to my boob at the moment so I feel your pain! He's a pretty rubbish sleeper too, so it's definitely a 24hr thing..........except for last night!!!!!!!.....>........A went to bed at 9pm and only woke up once briefly until 1am when I gave him his next feed. He then slept from around 1.30am until 5.15am!!! Woo hoo! That's the longest sleep he's ever had!!!! However it then took over an hour of feeding, carrying and patting him to get him to go back to sleep until 7.30am when we eventually got up. I'm not complaining though because I actually managed to get 4 ours of sleep in one go!!!!! (If I'd gone to bed at 9pm with him I would have had another 4 hr stretch too...) Oh well.

About having baby in the room until 6 months - we're going to have A in our room until we either have another child or move to a bigger flat because we only have 1 bedroom! I can understand why people want to get a bit of peace from their babies though - they're sooo noisy at night time. I think it is a bit unnatural to sleep far away from your baby though until it's sleeping through the night without being fed, from a biological perspective anyway. >

Obviously, it's not always a choice because of practical things like not having the room for a cot in your bedroom etc! (Didn't mean to sound like I was criticising anyone)

Another here with a very limited support network - my parents are 4 hours drive away. FIL is much closer, but still around 40 minutes in the car, and not really the sort to pop round and help with the housework, though he did come and (half) help DH do something with our front garden. He would babysit, but I think only if we took LO around to theirs. Also, a bit of a billy-no-mates. This is largely my own fault due to a) not learning to drive, so difficult to visit my work buds who are all some way away and b) being a lazy, antisocial loner who doesn't bother going to M&B groups etc. My NCT group are lovely, but I am very poor at making an effort to see them. And my lovely bestest friend went and moved to America 18 months ago. Grrrrrr. How selfish!!

Fortunately, we have each other, here, as a support network. So we can't actually sit around and have tea and cake, and chatting on line is not the same as chatting in the living room, but I really don't know what I would have done without you guys and MN in general. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't still be breastfeeding, for one thing.

Tigga, re: your situation. I think it is rather lovely of your DP to ask for help as a present rather than something that costs money, but perhaps it is like Springy says, and she sees it as degrading somehow? I suppose if she had offered the help it would be slightly different. But it is very annoying if you have seen someone in the family given loads of help and support, and you are then left to fend for yourself. I suppose the only thing to do is be really open and ask for help from them. Perhaps you could somehow make a day of it - ask if they will come round, SIL can help with a big spring clean/ help to entertain Sam, DPs brother can help DP in the garden, and then have a nice barbecue together or similar. So you would all be working together, not her working for you. Get MIL in on the action as well.

Little H is wiggling on his mat, trying very hard to roll over!

springy her children are now 18 and 15 and no she still can't cope. We've paid her in the past to do some cleaning - it helped both of us out so I can't see how this would now be degrading to her. She's really good at it and she'd make a fabulous business at it if she put her mind to something other than herself for 5 minutes. If dp didn't get on with his sister he wouldn't help her out. I say get on but it's entirely one sided, she only speaks to him when she wants something and he's always been there to pull her out of whatever stupidity she's got herself into. I use to have a lot of time for her but she's done some not very ethical things over the last 2 years, I keep my opinions to myself as much as I can but sometimes they spill out so that may contribute - I'm nothing if not honest with myself There's a difference in needing to have a bit of space and depending on other people, she hasn't been self reliant in the 12 years I've known her for anything and it's always a man she's turned to to help her out. I probably intimidate her as I've never relied on anyone but me in my life - comes of having parents who were wastes of skin and zero social skills growing up.

She has never been diagnosed with depression she just tells people she is. She feels sorry for herself a lot and that's about it. She wouldn't know true depression if it walked up and bit her on her arse. A psycologist told her to buck her ideas up and that she wasn't depressed just a bit blue!

She's never going to be a bff but I've really tried to be friends with her am not sure I want to waste the energy anymore.

Ooops ranting again and springy you didn't offend me

SmoochesTiggaxx

Well you all make me sound like a horrible mother having moved Meg to her own bed at 3 or 4 weeks and then me moving out of her room and back in with Dh at 5 weeks... But to be completely honest it worked for us...as in, I do horrible without sleep and I start getting depressed when my seratonine (sp) levels drop and when I was having all that trouble with the feeds AND not getting sleep I was quickly heading down a path I really knew I did not want to go down...So I had to solve the problem as best I could.
I measure feeds from end of one to start of next, though I'm not sure if that's how it's supposed to go... So during the day we might feed at 9 then 12.30 then 4 then like I said I condense the feeds to what is recently 6 and 9. (it was 6 8 10).
I know it might not help, or it may do, but I found that Meg liked to muck around on the breast (on again, off again, doze off, etc. like you described Ju) and feeds were taking 45min- 1hr. Then I thought this is silly. So let her go off and on 3 times then took her off and 'packed up shop.' Likewise when she dozed off I took her off and packed up. She whined a bit and fussed a bit (if she was really upset I'd put her back on), and for a week or so I feed her more often (when ever she asked for it during the day no matter the timetable) but I stuck to the 3 times mucking about and you're off, or fall asleep and your off. After a while she got the message. If I'm hungry I feed. We tend not to have problems now, and I still keep up the 'rules' and the feeds are less than 30min now from start to finish.
I completely know that it may not work for anyone else and their babies, but it did help with Meg and me and helped to make our days a little more structured and reliable.

Blue you gotta do what's right for you - then it's right for your baby!

SmoochesTiggaxx

Kali - congrats on the improved sleep! I agree with you re: the sleeping. It is another modern construction, having baby tucked away in his own room from an early age. However, I don't mean to be a judgy-pants about it. With the co-sleeping, I am getting a fair amount of sleep. Were I having to get up to feed him 3-4 times in the night, and exhausted, I think I would definitely be trying to get him into the nursery to get me a bit more sleep. DH is quite keen on him going into the nursery soon, but I think that is mostly because he never expected H to be in with us, and because of the dreaded People At Work. However, his sleep is rarely disturbed at all, so he's not hugely bothered about it.

I wonder what I would be doing for day-time naps, were H not made of velcro. I'm inclined to think I'd have him down here in the living room with me in moses basket/ travel cot, rather than upstairs. I actually put him in his cot for two minutes yesterday while I went to the loo (rather than having him sitting in the baby bath in the bathroom!!), and I couldn't wee quickly enough! Now that's PFB!

I've been pondering the whole concept of mothering vs parenting. Where there is a DP/DH involved, how much say do you feel they should have in the decisions about feeding/ sleeping/ weaning, in these early baby stages? DH and I have differing opinions on quite a few things, but I'm inclined to think that as Mum, I'm the one who should have the final say. E.g. He's really keen on giving a bottle of formula in the evening, but I've put my foot down and said no. But why should he not have the right to make that decision about his son? 'Tis tricky.

Also, have to say, Bicnod is a another April Hottie!

That's exactly what I think too Tigga
And her bedroom is 5 feet from ours and we used to keep the doors open between the two rooms and and and I really do love my baby lots! And would never want her to come to harm! Oh the guilt we get racked with as mothers...

I'm a fine one to talk about modern constructions - she who lives her life through a laptop