Sept 08: They're under starters orders .... and they're off .... well, some of them!

[ILikeToMoveItMoveIt]

I thought I'd use this title as not all of our delicious babies are on the move yet, including mine

that sounds really interesting ninja what subjects do you do?

Hi ninja

Yes, he cant wait for the hols....got his new class allocation for year 2 yesterday and he is not with his best friend He is with some of the kids from his current class, but he's a bit sad and worried about it. If any of you are teachers, can you tell me why schools do this? (I know not all do) It seems calculated to cause the most upset possible!!!!!

Have a good day ladies, got to go to a funeral this afternoon.....

Hi Debi I teach maths and we go out to teach Further Maths A Level to schools that don't offer it.

The government in their infinite wisdom decided to end the project early so I wasn't sure if I had a job fro a while, but luckily I'm still employed in the follow-on project, they must love me

It's great. I LOVE it. small groups of enthusiastic kids, some admin that I can do at home, interesting management and I'm my own boss.

I miss some of the staffroom chat, but I was bored where I was before.

I must think of some more work to do now so I can tally up my hours while the CM has Maebh

I love love love my maclaren XT. It's brilliant in ths sun with the pull down shade. I prefer it to the Quest as it lies back flatter so DS sleeps better.

Think I'm going to have to start a sleep thread. The paediatric nurse came by this morning and said cc was the only way to get DS to sleep through as we're still using so many props to get him to sleep. She also said it could take up to 4 weeks. I asked what would happen if we just carried on as we were would he eventually stop waking in the night. She said we'd just have a harder time later on as he doesn't know how to self settle. He does. But only when co-sleeping. Probably doesn't count. Don't know what to do. I don't want to end up as one of those weak willed parents you see on supernanny letting their kids run rings round them.

DG - CC was desinged for older children - it was NEVER intended to be used on babies. Am very shocked at how much it is used on children under 2 years. There are some articles on the web if you want more info.

Babies dont sleep like we do - their sleep cycle is very short and they have less REM sleep too.....CC will not alter that. Of course, some babies sleep better than others - just like us. (I am a chronic insomniac for instance)

Typical night chez becaroo...After baths dh feeds toby and settles him to sleep (he either falls asleep feeding or dh takes him up to our bed). I deal with ds1 in his room - stories, cuddle, sleep. Toby is put in his cot in the same room as ds1. They stay there til one or both of them wake up. On a good night, they sleep through and we are woken about 5.30/6am. Not often! An average night is ds1/toby waking at at about 3am, me getting in with ds1(he has a double bed!) and dh taking toby in with him til morning. They are both early risers and always have been. (Despite black out blinds from birth!!!)

It wouldnt work for everyone, but we are getting lots of sleep and the dc are rested too - and its not forever....kids do eventually want their own bed/space. It just seems like forever!!!!

Saw a really sad sight at the hospital this morning when I took ds1 for his check up - some social workers and a foster mother were trying to get a mother to hold her 10 week old baby girl and she wouldnt the mother looked really angry and obviously didnt even want to be there....poor woman.

Funeral went ok...it was a neighbour. Been an upsetting day in many ways today.

starlight thanks for the advice...will see how he is between now and the end of term...have just found out his BF is in the next classroom and they arent in the same ability group anyway, so hopefully it wont be too distressing.....its been a difficult term what with all the struggles to get ds1 assessed and then the cock ups with the S&L referal...am a bit frustrated with the school tbh.....

Digi don't do CC it is heartbreaking.
We can't use it as Robyn'd crying sets DS of and he headbangs his door and gets very upset. Up until now we have been just taking it as it comes but recently bought the No Cry Sleep Solution. It is a gentler way to get them to sleep and we are finding improvements in Robyns sleep patterns. I'm on a sleep thread about babies 6 months old not sleeping through and they try loads of different tricks.
Remember it can take till 2 years before they are not waking in a night and they are not really capable of sleeping throught until 9-10 months old

DG I know we've been terribly lucky with C being a good sleeper, so I can only imagine how hard it is for you and DH that your DS does not sleep, but for what it's worth, I couldn't do CC.
I've heard of the no cry sleep solution, might be a good idea for you.
If DS will self settle by co sleeping, why not just keep going with that? If you want to get him into his own cot, could you put his cot next to your bed?
If all of these are not a solution, then all I can offer is that it will resolve itself eventually and i disagree that if you don't do it now it'll be harder later - how can anyone know that?

Having said all that, may be best not to listen to me as we are all currently in the garden due to heat. C is in her travel cot on the patio and has gone from sleeping from 7pm to being wide awake wanting to play! It's just too hot in her room so we're all staying up. She not upset, so i think, what the hell!

Haven't had time to start another thread so thanks for your posts on here!

A typical night goes somethine like this:
DH baths DS and sings him lullabies in a dim light in his room then when he's all relaxed I go up to his room and feed him to sleep.
DS will wake anything to an hour later or if we're reall lucky three hours later. If less than three hours DH will pick him up and rock him to sleep. If he cries for more than 20 minutes I usually go in and feed him back to sleep again.
Then he'll wake around 1 or 2am and if it's DH who has resettled him then he'll wake within the hour and I'll feed him. Then he'll wake as soon as I put him back in his cot and pulls himself up and either starts to play or cry. At this point I bring him into our bed where he'll fall asleep till about 4 or 5am when he'll wake and demand an upright feed (me sitting up in bed not lying down). Then he'll sleep till about 6 but sometimes if it's 5 he won't he'll just stay up.

On a bad night he'll wake hourly and be in our bed by 12am, but still wake at least twice for an upright feed before morning. So co-sleeping doesn't actually stop him from waking up, it just minimises the effort of me getting up and going into his room and then spending about 20 mins trying to gently put him back in his cot (which is bloody hard work now he's nearly 22lbs).

Spoke to DH tonight about it and he thinks cc might be the way to go. He's already thinking about how we'd cope with a newborn and toddler who keeps climbing out of bed and demanding his mummy.

digital if your ds is teething or too hot you'd be wasting your time doing cc for the time being. You might find it easier to wait for the weather to cool and a lull in teething. My two have both been unsettled sleepers this week, although its more a case of being grizzly in the evening and waking up early than being awake all night. Personally I think that if you can cope with some gentle cc then try it, I know people in RL who have done cc a lot sooner.

Thanks meglet. I thought I'd killed the thread with my boring sleep post. If we were to do it I wouldn't start it in this heat or while teething.

In the same way that you can't know if it's going to get worse how can you know that it will get better? Obviously he won't be in with us at 18, but what if he's still waking up every 2-3 hours when he's 5 and has trouble staying awake at school? My younger brothers (9 and 5yo) are both massively sleep deprived (huge eye bags, lack of concentration, fall asleep straight after school) - perhaps because my dad and their mum never paid much attention to their sleeping patterns. If it runs in the family then perhaps I ought to do something about it. DH is not keen on co-sleeping the whole night. I must say neither am I.

Anyway. I'm knackered. Might have a nap myself while he's down.

I agree with starlight....try gentler methods first....cc is hard core and should be used as an absolute last resort and only for older children IMHO.

I guess I am so used to only sleeping 4 hours a night, it doesnt get to me like it used to .....although ds1 was HORRIFIC...he was a small, poorly baby and only slept for 40 minutes at a time day and night for his first couple of months Not pleasant.

So pleased Roddick won...its gonna be a good final

DG I have re-read my last post and I hope you dont think I am being overly critical of you or your dh...its just that I know how hard it is when you are sleep deprived to make decisions and how much soul searching goes on prior to these decisions, but the PN nurse was talking complete drivel - her view was prevalent in the 1950's and remember - it is only her view.

There are lots of things to try before CC.

I never thought my ds1 would EVER sleep through - I can remember sitting on the sofa whilst my mum was here and I was sobbing and almost hallucinating with fatigue and wondering what I was doing wrong as everyone elses baby seemed to sleep....He is 6 and does now sleep pretty well and happily goes up to bed and falls asleep with no fuss...I would never have believed it but these stages do pass xx

DG I'm a fan of CC but know that you're not so will offer my half-way-house advice.

A common theory is that if babies have a sleep prop, then when they come into a light sleep during the night, they might wake up fully if that sleep prop is not there. For my dd this was her dummy and she couldn't find it and put it back in again, so we did CC. For ds he grabs a muslin and sucks his thumb, then he's straight back to sleep. Although I don't go to him overnight, I know he wakes up and plays and settles back to sleep again during the night. Therefore as your ds is fed to sleep, he needs to be fed again when he's come into a light sleep. I would therefore try to crack the problem at the start of the night, and not feed him to sleep. If you don't want to do CC at that time, you could do the shush-pat, or pick-up-put-down, or gradual withdrawl (where over the course of several nights you gradually sit further from the cot until you're out of the room), or any other method which means he goes to sleep in his cot having been put there awake. Could you feed your ds, then your dh do the dim light/cuddles thing? Once he's reliably settling at bedtime, there's a chance he'll self-settle better in the night, or at the very least need fewer feeds and only feed for hunger rather than re-settling. HTH.

We found out today that they house we like is under offer, but as we haven't had an offer yet, we might have to watch it slip away

DG I'm afraid I agree with the others.

I know q few people who've used CC and they've often said that any slight change (a holiday, hot weather, illness, teeth, ....) and they've had to do it again and that it broke their heart every time.

Is there any way you can both find a way of getting more sleep? One of you cosleeping with him at a time? For DD1 I had a mattress in her room next to the cot, so I could lie and comfort her. In fact we moved her onto a double mattess at 18 months and it was the best thing we did - she never liked the cot.

Digital - forget what everyone (and I mean everyone) has said to you, and take some time (alone)to think about these questions:

Why do you think ds is waking up? eg is he hungry, does he need human contact/assurance, habit? etc etc

If you think you know what is getting in the way of ds's sleep, how would you like to tackle it?

If you don't know what is getting in the way of ds's sleep, how would you like to tackle it?

Also, has your ds slept ok previously? If yes, has anything changed? Illness? Teething? Has there been a disruption in your lives (have you started work again etc)? The hot weather?

My advice would be, however you choose to tackle it, you need to make a plan and stick to it for at least a week. Don't jump from one 'solution' to another (I've been guilty of this and it doesn't work.)

When you are in the situation you are in it is hard to see the wood through the tree's, which is why I suggest you take some time and thought over what you do.

If we can be of any help, just shout. Sleep training can be very draining.

You will get there

I think I'm going to take on board some of the tips she gave that I've also read on here before embarking on cc. Today I made sure he didnt nap after 4. I also made sure he had a really big dinner, takes some persevering but we got there in the end. Then I breastfed him downstairs after his bath so that he didn't immediately drop off. Then DH rocked him to sleep upstairs by which time he was knackered.

We'll see how often he wakes tonight. Am going to try and only feed him once.

I've been offered some more freelance work starting nxt week so all routines are going to be upset again. I'm going to give my mum strict instructions not to let him sleep for hours and hours during the day. Problem is she looks after him after doing a night shift so it's easier for her if he sleeps all day. Bloody hell I've got to sort out some proper childcare.

Right think I'll go to bed now as starlight suggested.

How did you get on DG??
I'm a big fan of routine too, I honestly find if DS2 does not nap at the "correct" times (for him)/sleeps too little/too long his night time sleep is disturbed. I also agree with ILTMIMI that you must stick to a plan for at least a week, whatever you decide to do...

Hope you had a better night DG x

digigirl We are frightened by CC, but have recently started a gentle sort of routine and DD has responded to it quite well. Here's what we do:

• No sleep after 4pm
• Dinner at 5pm - 6pm
• Bath 6pm with lovely lavender organic stuff
• Straight into darkened bedroom for gentle quiet story together on the bed
• Big bottle, lots of claming cues like shushing and I find gently stroking her cheek works amzingly to calm her down
• Pop dummy in a soon as she has finished her feed

By this time she is either asleep or very calm. Either way, we pop her into the cot. She is now so used to this that even if we put her down awake, she WANTS to go to sleep and will roll over and drift off!

We haven't used any techniques except consistency and common sense, i.e. quiet dark room, calming cues like stroking and quiet monotone soothing voices.

The only time we tried CC, DD was just being silly and refusing to go to sleep. After the five minutes I went to settle her and found she was crying because she had wriggled her leg through the bar of the cot and was stuck! Don't want to do that again. But... I am trying to learn what is a distressed cry, and what is a 'I am really tired and will soon shut up and go to sleep' cry. I aim to err on the side of being soft!