March 2013 - gurgles, giggles and going on holiday (for some of us at least!)

[pudtat]

Will this do? Never started a thread before so hope this works...

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SoYo you poor thing. Is there anything you can do that you know gets her to sleep, ignoring the fact that it's probably not something you want to get into a habit of? E.g. Go for a drive, a walk, curl up in your bed with her, etc? Sounds like it might be a night for whatever works and sod the consequences (obviously excluding brandy...for her at least)

Alternatively, just have a good old cry. You're bound to feel better for it. Then gather yourself back together and keep going, you're doing a great job.

Still at it. Had one success but it only lasted 5mins. It's not getting her to sleep that's the problem, it's putting her down one she is. My old faithful fall back is feeding her in bed with me but I've tried that 3 times, got her to the point of floppy arms & she's still woken up when I've tried a transfer & I'm very loath to co-sleep here as she's just starting to roll & there's nothing to stop her falling out. I'm just past myself.

Plonko I am now the sobbing mess you describe. I start the bedtime dance around the same time but then some nights she's just not ready to go down then so if I have fails I get her back u for a bit if she's wide awake. That's totally different from tonight though because she's obviously exhausted. I'm just out of ideas.

Soyo am guessing you and mini yo now asleep in exhausted heap but just wanted to send you some love from Norfolk. We'll get our operation sleep ideas together and discuss tomorrow. When do you next have some help?
You inspire us lot daily with your ongoing patience. You're clearly a great mother and mini yo is lucky to have you.

Just to say Soyo what Eco said! I have no idea how you get up everyday and walk around on the sleep you don't get.

Fwiw I used to go and just be with DS when we'd put him to bed and he was grizzling about it. No cuddles, only shhh noises, but eye contact and my presence usually calms him. I won't leave him to cry alone but when he's fed, bathed, clean bum and tucked up in bed then its sleepy time. The only times I've found he really won't settle then are when he's growth spurting and genuinely hungry again. Quick feed and he's out like a light usually, but that is rarely going to be your problem I'm guessing.

Mind you, I totally accept he's a great sleeper. We're at mils and its the first time he's been away from home overnight. Did bedtime routine as normal (feed, bath, nappy on to John Denver's Annie's Song and or Eva Cassidy Over the Rainbow, put to bed and read Each Peach Pear Plum, told its sleepy time and given a kiss while I put Ewan the sheep on). Down in 25 mins from going upstairs to bath him. Gave him dream feed at 10ish as normal and he woke 4:10 for first feed which is good for us normally. Just wish he'd drink (eat?) more during the day now it's even hotter!

Soyo - is your DD still in a moses basket? I have found that my DD has slept better than ever in her cot as she has lots of space to move around in so doesn't wake up trying to break free. Also, if she's calm and not crying, have you just left her to see if she'll go off on her own? I tried for so long with her screaming while I tried to get her to sleep when all she wanted was to be left to it! I never let her 'cry it out' so give her a hug if she.starts and then pop her down again. Can't offer any more help than that i'm afraid.

Oh, SoYo, you poor thing. This isn't quite what you were expecting motherhood to be, is it? Did you manage to get her to sleep in the end? As for practical advice, have you tried posting in the sleep section of the forum? All I can think of is trying to figure out her usual length of awake time before she'll sleep without being overtired and then try to get her naps in the right place for that, but I expect you know that anyway. The only other thing would be to look at how you're getting her to sleep - great that it's easy, but it sounds like you need to find a way to do it without holding her. Wish I had something more helpful to offer.

hello again soyo i was pondering your situation some more. how is your LO with day time naps? next time you feel a bit more rested and have some support could you maybe work on the self-settling during the day at nap time so that your dd has more practice which hopefully in time will help with night time? I'm sure you've thought of all of these things of course.
like any says at what point does a transfer become a fail? does she wail as soon as you put her down? without fail for day time naps dd cries for about a minute I'd say but it's a different sort of cry.

would it be helpful to hear from us what bedtime cues we use or is there something else that'd be helpful?

pain au chocolat your way soyo.

Having a quick flick through the baby whisperer. She reckons the pick up / put down method is the way to go. Basically involves picking up and comforting when she cries and putting her straight back in the cot when she stops. And if she's having a full on tantrum, comfort in the cot. This supposedly results in sleep after twenty minutes but can take over an hour. Could be worth investigating that method?

I still find I have to wrap his arms up to get him to sleep. He wriggles out of it and is fine sucking and self settling once he's asleep but seems to need to feel snuggled for the initial bit. Was swaddling something you did or didn't try / worked?

Not trying to tell you how to do it (haven't got a clue!) just trying to think of ideas of things which have worked for us and might be worth a go.

Shhh pat from ebw was good if he got in a proper tizzy. Sometimes do sort of pick up put down (he's only just old enough as she only recommends this from4 months) and do sometimes find that popping him upright illicits a burp which once put leaves him much calmer. If youre feeding to sleep is it poss that she is a bit windy and therefore a little uncomfortable? I notice he has much more trapped wind if I forget to burp him after night feeds bad mummy. Just thinking out loud!

Air kisses (too hot for hugs!) and wishes for a lovely calm day for both Yos.

I agree with pud on the burps. Also, I have found she needs a comforter (as well as her thumb) which is either her teddy, a muslin, crochet blanket she can put her fingers through etc. Basically anything she can suck and then fling around the cot. It looks like an episode of Flash Forward in the morning but at least she's happy
Sweaty hugs soyo - hope you have a good day today.

Aah thanks everyone. Worst night since she was born I think. I've never not managed to get her down at all. I never got her into her cot, started co-sleeping at 1.15am but she woke up seeking boob every 30-45mins. Nightmare! I did try a few more times overnight but still no success. Highly unusual. I also tried teething gel and calpol just in case! Who the hell knows what was going on!

Thanks for all the tips, unfortunately I don't think there's any I haven't tried! Putting her down awake is where we fail. I've tried a million times in many different ways but its never worked unless she's in the pram or car. Having spoken to a lot of mums, this has been the case for quite a few people and its just something they grow out of eventually! Some babies are just a pain!

Swaddling is a no no, she liked it for 3 weeks but then started trying to get her arms out and started sleeping much better once we put her in a bag! She's in a cot now too, grew out of her Moses basket about 5 weeks ago.

Pick up, put down was tried many times last night but always resulted in screaming!

Transfer fails are once she starts screaming or the whinging is escalating rather than settling, sometimes that's instant, sometimes 5 mins after putting down. Shh-pat just makes her irate!

Wind at night has never been a problem for her but after a few of her feeds last night I burped her just in case but got nothing.

She's actually getting better at giving in to daytime naps although they're mostly in the pram as getting her down in the cot during the day is a rare pleasure, I still try just for the hell of it though! Her sleep cues are very obvious too.

Our usual nights aren't too bad to be honest, getting her to sleep is always a bit of a problem and success can come anywhere between 8-11pm, then she wakes up anything between 1-4 times before 6 then we have a snuggle in bed after that. That I can definitely cope with, this less so!!!

Anyway today is a day for chocolate and making use of the parents! They took her at 7 and I had a couple of hours snooze so we're back to normal now.

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the advice and the sympathy! Fingers crossed it was just a one off!

Well, the BW technique would involve picking her up when she starts screaming, and putting her down when she stops, and it does say this may take a while to work - you could be looking at trying for a week or more before it works. That's likely to be the case whatever you try though - this parenting lark involves a lot of persistence.

Since you're ending up co-sleeping anyway, could it be worth just going the whole hog for now, and trying to settle her in your bed? Then once she's asleep you could sneak away. It's not ideal, but it may be preferable to how things are currently. At the moment she's obviously using you as an aid to sleep; I'd be inclined to try switching her over to a different prop, if you can find anything else that would calm her. The ideal is obviously getting her to go to sleep by herself, but if that's not possible now then at least getting her on a more manageable sleep aid would make life easier. And then of course there's always the letting her have a good scream and seeing if she goes to sleep afterwards method (you don't have to leave the room for this), but even if you'd be up for that it would be hard with a baby inclined to scream a lot.

When you say she'll sleep in the pram, do you mean when you're out and about? Or will she sleep happily in it if it's just parked in a corner of the room?

Thanks Stormy, I think you're right & I'll give pick up, put down a prolonged go & see.

She'll only fall asleep in the pram if its moving but then I usually park her up in the garden & leave her to snooze.

I'm off to take her for a swim in the local baths to try & exhaust her!!

Is it just you holding her that she needs to sleep, or do you rock or otherwise provide motion? Hoping just the former as that at least would make changing things a little easier.

Swimming sounds good, with this heat. 32 degrees expected in London tomorrow, I'm glad I'm not down there! So how does one swim with a baby, and what gear is required? And how do I persuade the man to come with and play in the baby pool while I do some lengths?

If only Stormy, it's either feeding or motion that makes her sleep! I was always so convinced I wouldn't let the happen & I'd be putting her down to sleep from the get go but the more I've tried, the more convinced I am that it just doesn't work for some babies and they'll only sleep that way. It's not the end of the world and I'm sure only very temporary in the grand scheme of things, as long as we don't have too many nights like last night and a long gap between them. As my parents keep saying, don't worry too much about what other babies will do and do what you can to survive with yours. A friend of mine had a very strict routine that worked amazingly with her first (he slept through from 8 weeks) and she admits that when people moaned about sleeping she used to just assume they weren't strict enough or didn't try hard enough, and then she had her second! Routine was exactly the same but he was just like my DD and didn't sleep more than 3-4hrs until he was 11months, and never without being put down solidly asleep, then just suddenly got himself into his own routine. She's now regretting being a bit smug the first time!

As for swimming, you need a disposable swim nappy (Huggies make them & you can buy from most supermarkets or boots etc) then something for over, either a neoprene swim nappy or a little baby swimsuit or wetsuit. Today madam had her wetsuit on as the local pool is much cooler than the one we do our lessons in. I usually have my swimsuit on before going but get her changed when there (swim nappies just keep poo in, not wee, so if you put it on before you go you'll arrive with a wet baby voice of experience) so once I've sorted her it only takes me a second. I take a changing mat & get her changed on the floor on that as I don't like looking away from those fold down ones in case she takes a dive. When we come out I strip her down & wrap her in her towel immediately so she's cosy and then put her on the mat on the floor while I get changed and then sort her. It's a bit of a faff the first time but I'm getting very efficient! My other learned the hard way tips are dont forget your own underwear or a nappy for afterwards!!!

Our swim today was lovely, it cooled her right down and she's had a mega nap after!

Hey there SoYo, sounds like we have similarly stubborn babies. The worselet resolutely won't sleep through any method other than motion or occasionally feeding. I've given up trying to get her to self settle.... it ain't gonna happen. She's a great little sleeper when she eventually does tip over, so I just live with it. My tactic is to hold her tight, take her upstairs to the spare room (which seems to have taken on the role of going to sleep room), and rock her humming a lullaby. DH does the same, minus the lullaby. Works, most of the time, and when it doesn't the reserve line of attack is a walk round the garden.

Leni - It's sad isn't it. I'm in the same boat and I really miss the bonding time. Chin up, just think of the teeth. Some things are best not chewed on.

Baby swimming sounds fantastic, but I think that'll have to wait until the tiddler is big enough to take the cold and dirt of an out door pool. She sort of swims in the bath though, as I have it deep enough for her to kick around. Poor little thing is so hot and sweaty a bath is probably the only thing she'd looking forward to. Milk has certainly lost its appeal.

Speaking of which, anyone else having a lot of trouble getting milk down at the moment? DD just isn't interested, and it can take 90 mins with many many play breaks to get her to eat more than half. Someone told me hers were like this when they were ready to wean. Being a rookie I have no clue. Could be anything. Teeth? Heat? A yen for puréed carrot? Whatever the reason it's a bit of a worry as given the weather she needs fluids.

SoYo, Plonko V cute photos. Awwww...

And finally, the news flash for the day.... we had a roll!!! Little miss has finally grown up and graduated to big baby class.

Wors it's good know she's not the only stubborn one!

Goodness only knows how I managed to cross through half of that post, a badly placed bracket I suspect! Oops! Can I blame the fatigue?

Congratulations on the rolling Worselet, now you are officially no longer safe to be left on a changing mat! They really are growing fast aren't they?

We're having trouble getting milk in too. She's just not interested, and gets a bit screamy if we persist. Was meaning to ask if anyone else is having the same problem. So it's probably heat related. Also, Wonder Weeks says the week nineteen mental changes mean they're much more easily distracted.

We have rolled from front to back! Three times I've witnessed this, but she won't do it for the man, and she won't do back to front for me.

SoYo I'm convinced there must be a way to make every baby sleep, the trouble is it could take months to figure out! At least you're mostly coping with the sleep issues. It will pass eventually. My hippy friend was a bit smug about her first napping beautifully. Her second was clearly sent to wipe the grin off her face - thirteen months, won't nap, and wakes more times a night than mine. I can only assume her impending number three was conceived in a moment of sleep deprived madness. It really does just depend on the baby, I think.

The heat also seems to be doing funny things to milk intake here, although total consumption hasn't dropped much (thanks for the baby connect tip btw) she seems to have scrapped the 6oz every 4hrs thing in favour of 3 every 2. Guess it makes sense with getting thirsty etc... Bloody irritating with wasted milk and constant washing/sterilising/making up of bottles though. Those 3oz often take a good hour to get down her as well. Luckily by bedtime she's usually happy to take a full bottle again, so it's not affecting her sleep too much.

Ok all you sleepless mummies... Does anyone want a copy of my album, which just so happens to be very soothing and makes DS sleep? I will happily send MP3s for free if you think it might be worth a try! There's two very chilled albums so plenty to experiment with. My sister used it for her DCs and I felt a bit annoyed at first (is my voice really only good for babies etc ) but now I couldn't care less if my audience are all under 1!

I put DS down with music on and bottle him (in the nicest sense!) to almost sleep. He normally then grizzles and I burp him or jiggle him and put him down again, stroke his temples until his eyes close (with dummy). I make sure I don't look him in the eye (like a dog!) because if I do he fights sleep. If he sees my eyes closed he's still comforted but gets the message somehow. Takes me up to an hour of going back in and trying again. His co-sleeper cot is now by the opposite wall so my movement doesn't wake him and vice versa.

The heat in London is getting unbearable - DS is a sweaty mess and has heat rash, I'm grumpy and STILL having a period. He's learned how to take out his dummy with his hand now and looks like a gentleman with a pipe when he does it. Had a little grumpy splash in a paddling pool this morning, in between some excessive screaming (and I mean actual SCREAMS which are another recent new skill ).

GP prescribed some domperidone to see if I can at least keep giving one EBM a day for now, some success with pumping this morning so may e there's still hope. Thanks all for your support as ever

Still no mortgage offer... Maybe I'll go round there with a screaming child and then they might get the urgency?!

Might upload a funny picture later - me pre-mummyhood

Okay, I take it back, milk is no problem here in comparison! We've gone from always clearing four flozzes, to sometimes four and sometimes five, and now we're on three to four, with the occasional two and the occasional five. Still feeding every three hours so there's no persisting for an hour and a half either. I shall count my blessings just as soon as I've finished melting.

Bit worried about milk here too. Boob time is consistent but lower than average. Think comfort sucking doesn't seem like a good idea though so maybe he's still getting the bulk in the 3-5 mins a side he's prepared to tolerate. Not interested in top up. I don't have it in me to make him scream for an hour while I try though! bad mummy? Nappies are a bit down on normal but still ok I think. goes off to worry

We can get 5-6 flozzes (glad that's catching on btw) down DS with much persistence and arm holding. His chubby little fingers are everywhere - down my top, in my mouth, all over the bottle, in his own mouth... His dad walking around the room is The Most Exciting Thing Ever and reason to stop drinking altogether. He's waking at 4am again for a bottle. It's got to be the weather, but like Worse others are telling me to gerron the puréed veg. Stormy I think this fits your description of week 19. I think it's very tempting to supplement with food at a time like this but if the toddlers guys not sealed...hmm.

Leni I hope the domperidone works. If not might I suggest Dom Perignon?

SoYo swimming sounds lovely. Must try it. How's tonight shaping up?

*tiddler's gut. Damn technology