Brooking no argument for babies who sleep, eat, smile and behave perfectly at all times. Yeah right!

[scarletfingernail]

New thread, here we go...

May I ask your collective opinion on something?

Fibbing. By ds1. Very minor things but how hard should I crack down on it? Two examples:

1. A few weekends ago we were trying to get him to do stand up wees and he wasn't too keen. Anyway, he caught on that if he was doing a poo he could do a sit down wee so every time we tried a stand up wee he'd say 'oh I need a poo', then sit down, do a wee and then say 'oh I don't think I do need a poo....' Now, the first time I pulled him up on it and said that he shouldn't tell me a fib, he should tell me the truth if he really doesn't want to so a stand up wee. So I wasn't that bothered in the grand scheme of things whether he stood up or not. What I objected to was him deliberately setting out to try and 'trick' me.

1. This evening I asked him to take toy back to the playroom, which he did. I thought I heard him chick it into the room (but could have been chucking it in the box of cars) and I thought well I didn't actually tell him to put it away, so I asked him whether he put it away or just on the floor. Nb I wasn't cross at all, it was genuinely just an enquiry. He said he'd put it away. Then a few minutes later said 'don't go and check though'. When I turned round I could see it in the doorway, not in the box. So again a pointless fib over something stupid. And again I wasn't bothered if he'd not put it in the box I just wanted to know whether I should go and do it, but he opted for a fib rather than the truth.

So as I said they are really minor things, but I have an absolute hatred of dishonesty of any sort (as does DH). Ridiculously so. (We have a family member who just lies for the sake of it and I hate it. And I have this ridiculous worry that I wouldn't want my children to be like that). For example, if I was ever undercharged in a shop I would go back and rectify it, but my mum (who is not the family member mentioned above) will tell me how she's realised she's been undercharged or given too much change and just left quickly.
This horrifies me. I can't abide dishonesty.

So, I know he's only 4, and I am not naive enough to think that he will always tell me the 100% honest truth. However, I really don't want him to tell me a fib when I just ask a bloody question.

So how tough should I be or am I massively over reacting. I have no idea how much fibbing you'd expect from a 4 year old?

I am aware that I have a major hang up over it all and in struggling to see what would be a reasonable expectation of him.

Please help me. I don't know whether I should be setting my store out as in 'its completely unacceptable, never ever fib' or to just let it slide?

Honestly? For the most part I'd let it slide. I think that as long as you know he's fibbing you can choose your battles. The wee one is understandable. He doesn't for whatever reason want to wee standing up. That's ok, he's only 4. He won't want to do it when he realises his friends don't but that's ages away.

The toy one would maybe bother me, because it was laziness and he could have then gone and put it away rather than fib . So I probably would pull him up on that.

So in short, choose your battles wisely. He will fib at times, they all do I'm sure. If you make a major issue every time he will just learn to become better at it. I'd rather him think he's got away with something small so he doesn't get too good at fibbing for me to realise.

But that's only my opinion. You obviously feel very strongly about it so I understand why you want to pull him up on it.

Mmm. I don't think either of those examples are too terrible. The 'don't go and check, though' bit made me giggle. V cute! Um, how about trying to make your point very lightly? How about maybe making a bit of a joke of it and perhaps saying something like you're going to have to tickle him for telling fibs and chase him around growling and tickling? So it's a big game, but he knows you're not fooled? NB: have just realised that you can't tickle a boy who is sitting on the toilet. Maybe not with that particular example.

Or perhaps read some books with a strong moral?

Hmmm yes, I think maybe I like the light touch idea. You're both right - of course they're not big issues, but I don't want him to think it is ok to try to pull the wool over my eyes. It's the fact that they're such silly little thing that foxes me. DH agrees that we shouldn't let it slide but I don't want to be having to tell him off over tiny things when really the issue is lot whether he put the toy away it's that he didn't tell the truth.

And of course I do understand that he was reluctant to do the wee thing. But again I would far rather he just told me the truth. But I can see that it might look different to him. It was obviously An Issue for him so presumably seemed much more important whereas I'm thinking 'its fine if he doesn't want to do it, he'll get it eventually'. Incidentally, he did get it that weekend in the end and has been fine with them ever since .

We did have a tall quite recently about telling the truth and how he should always tell the truth to us, and the teachers etc. and he said 'but you shouldn't tell the truth about if you've hurt yourself?' Errrr, no, it's kinda essential that you tell the truth if you're hurt. He will get it won't he?

I'm sure he'll get it! He's not doing the attention-seeking sort of fibs that would make me go . I have a friend (v close friend, went to school together, were each other's bridesmaids etc) who tells silly little fibs, and they are always aimed at making herself seem smarter/stronger/richer/more dramatic etc. Like, for example, when the 7th Harry Potter book came out she said she read it in 3 hours while watching America's Next Top Model on TV at the same time. Now, that's a very big book, I know I read faster than she does, and it took me a day and a half of almost constant reading. It was such a silly fib, very obvious. There were more when we were younger - telling people she had a pony, that sort of thing. I'd be a bit more worried about that sort of fib, because it's born of insecurity. The examples you gave are more about laziness. So I think he'll grow out of it!

Biscuits, I'd agree with the light touch. Things that suggest to him it's not a good idea, but without making it too big a deal? I especially like Too's moral book idea - there must be some books on the topic? (If not, let's write one!).

Too, did you get an emergency appointment? I know I'd have to do that if I wanted an appt for Iz as our surgery's shocking. Reminds me, I need to make an appointment for next wk - must phone them...

A bit TMI, and I know I mentioned this before, but does anyone still have any issues with SFF? Still not the most comfortable thing here- hence why I think I need to make a doctors appointment. The smear a couple of months back was incredibly painful...

Back to things less TMI-y. Today Iz managed to pull herself up to standing for the first time. First the crawling now this... blimey! Must babyproof, and quickly... that's my day tomorrow sorted!

Brooking for better nights all round. One of the other mums at baby group said their DC slept better as soon as their first tooth broke through. Sooooo hoping that's the case here, as Iz's sleeping started getting worse as her teething symptoms got worse. Surely this tooth should be here soon...

I'm sure Enid Blyton featured fibbing children being despised by their peers...can't think of an example right now, though. Dh says The Boy Who Cried Wolf!

DH phoned and got the same rigmarole. He was offered an emergency appt for 4.30, but he couldn't have got home quickly enough to pick M up and get back to the surgery in time. So I'm to phone tomorrow and get her booked into the emergency clinic at 4.30. DH finishes earlier on a Friday and will be home by 4.

Musical, blimey, Iz is off! Well done! On the SFF front, it's been so long since we did it I've forgotten... But no, my smear didn't hurt at all, and SFF only hurts when DH gets a bit overenthusiastic, shall we say. M was born by CS, though, and I haven't had a tear, so perhaps Biscuits or Dream can advise you better.

Musical TMI too- I had a fail at the attempt at SFF because it hurt before we got very far but your child is older than mine so I guess you should be feeling better by now,,,

Brilliant with Iz standing although babyproofing sounds a fun job.

The last two nights DD has slept extremely well bed by 8 both nights 2 wake ups tue and one last night, have probably just jinxed it now.

Hope all the ill brookers are feeling much better and sleeping well.

Those of you on the Brooking FB group may have already seen my photo of DD in her Christening dress. Jaggy and Pet I've just put one on here especially for you.

SFF only happened once here, months ago so I can't advise Musical. I've had recurrent thrush ever since hence me stopping BFing so I can have some more effective treatment. Canesten is just not up to it. I was due a smear while pg which I'm still putting off because of it. Deffo see your doc, you should really be ok down there by now I'd have thought.

musical - I can't remember if you had a bad tear or not? I had an episiotomy with dd1 and a second degree tear no stitches with dd2 and sff and smear test with dd1 all fine by the 8 week mark. I'd go and get checked just in case if I were you.

biscuits - I agree with too that they are both lies about being a bit lazy so I probably wouldn't worry too much as I'd feel i understood the reason why. No harm in talking about lying being bad though!

musical, I had a lot of pain after my third degree tear. I remember being in tears at about 5 months post birth after another aborted attempt as it was still too painful. We first managed to dtd, not pleasant either, when DD was 6 months, and it slowly improved, and I was pg again by the time she was 10 months and able to do a ttc Shagathon so mine did get better, but definitely only really comfortable the last few weeks of ttc the dts. I was going to have it checked if it carried on any longer, in case the stitches were too tight or something. Luckily for me it was fine, but tmi, I still find if its sore, its sore at the back where I tore and I get some stinging still, but not all the time and DD is 2.2!!! Mostly its absolutely fine though.

Sorry

scarlet I doubt this is any help but DD has refused breakfast for about a week, mostly refuses everything actually. I may be able to persuade her to eat a bit of fruit (fairly useless I think calorie wise) a mouthful of yoghurt, maybe a petit filious size yoghurt, and maybe a mini roll or something for weeks now. Dh isn't concerned st all. I mean, he's concerned in a dad way as our daughter is barely eating, but he's not in the slightest bit worried medically. She takes ages getting over things. Really hope your ds improves soon for you.

Wow cakes just . I would kill for only one or two wake ups!!

Speaking of which, thanks for the lovely offer pomme . I'd best try him with a bottle again and see if we get anywhere first, as we are still only at sips from a beaker stage. and for you my lovely.

God I'm tired. Bed it is. Tonight I am trying to not let S sleep with me.... He is not going to like it.

Oh yes, biscuits, I'd talk to him to say its ok to not always want to do what mummy wants you to do, and you can tell me why, blah blah blah, and ditto say I won't be cross if you haven't always put a toy away if you were feeling a bit tired, lazy, whatever, we all feel a bit like that sometimes but its really important to tell the truth. Or just something so he knows you're not cross with what he did, just the fibbing. But i think all children fib a bit. I did very occasionally, my sister all the time, literally. We both turned out alright and are honest now.

oh anyone interested i got a book called 'my child won't eat' which is recommended a lot on mn for 1.99 for my kindle the other day. it's quite interesting about baby and toddler appetites and eating habits.

night night zzz

Thank you all

So DH and I talked about it last night and over analysed the examples we could think of and we came to the conclusion that it is mostly things where he had been a bit lazy or says what he thinks we want to hear (ie he must have thought I would want the toy to be away, although actually it had occurred to be that my instruction wasn't very specific so I just wondered what he'd done. But he wouldn't get that chain of thought I don't think!). Then we googled it too and apparently it seems quite normal.

We found an article that said it was perfectly normal, but you still shouldn't let them think they've got away with it iyswim. But just pass comment on it (so kind of like too said I think) and explain why you should tell the truth. We also found quite an interesting article in the independent (although possibly quite old) about how it is around age 4 that they realise your mind is separate to theirs. So a 3 year old might pour you an imaginary cup of tea. They would then expect you to imaginary drink the imaginary tea. That is them realising that you have a mind but they wouldn't realise it was independent to theirs. A 4yo would know that your mind had different ideas etc and thus comes the thought of planting an idea on someone else's mind. They did an experiment where they had 2 dolls, Sally and Annie. Sally puts a marble in a drawer, then leaves the room. Annie comes in and takes the marble out of the drawer and puts it on a shelf. When Sally comes back in they ask the children where they think Sally will look for the marble. The 4yos said in the drawer because they can see that Sally doesn't know that Annie moved it. The 3yos said on the shelf because they know where it is so expect Sally to know too iyswim.

So I think it is fine I just need to pick him up on it and not make a big deal. And a few talks at appropriate times about telling the truth is important. I think I'm overanalysing (no, really?) worrying about him growing up - after all he will learn from our example.

Now then, musical we were ages before we did SFF after ds1 (like a year ) and it felt fine by then, but apparently, when they came to repair my second degree tear after ds2 the doctor said what a good job they'd done the first time round (which was a third degree tear and episiotomy). It has been fine this time too but I think I am very lucky maybe. How old is Iz? If it is uncomfortable sort of 6 months in then it might be completely normal but might be worth just getting it checked?

Hope everyone else is ok. How did it go putting S back in his own bed Dream? How is DS Scarlet - any improvement? When do you have your next CBT?

Where has Scream gone again?

Thanks jaggy for the book recommendation, I'll definitely download it

biscuits do you think its a development thing as in he is learning to lie and trying it out. It is an important skill to learn sort of so maybe the best thing is to chat about when its absolutely not ok to lie and that he can just day if he wants to do x rather than y... Hmm not being much help.

musical ahem Tmi but I found when I was bfing it was all rather drier than usual something to do with the bf hormones I gather and its all got much better since I stopped.bf.

dream on the sleep thing I found if we had a lapse it was quicker than the training to get them back to the sleep routine if that is any help.

No I think that is helpful Hawthers - that is exactly what I tried to say with the stand up weeing thing. That it was ok to say he wanted to sit down, and that there wa Jo need to fib. I suspect you're right that they're just learning it and see what they can get away with. So then he will learn that it is something he could do but it generally isn't acceptable to do so.

I jinxed DD's sleep last night was not as good as previous two. Dream did you manage to keep S out of your bed? hope your nite was reasonable.

Tired tired tired. Tag team babies. But bar an accidental falling asleep with s in bed (thanks b for waking me up for your turn ) I put him back. He woke hourly or every 90 minutes though, was up loads all evening, then he went to sleep and i spent an hour, alternating with dh, trying to settle unhappy coughing b. Urgh.

That is very encouraging news hawthers

Thank you all for the TMI discussion :) It was a second degree tear. I thought I'd replied last night, but clearly my computer ate it!

Dream, sore and stinging describes it perfectly. No aborted attempts, but lots painful (starting painful especially!). I read somewhere it might take time to feel normal again and be painless, and it's getting better (I think - it's not as if we have SFF that often..), but it's still an issue. Biscuits, I do wonder if trying to have SFF earlier has made the problem worse, iyswim? . As in, if I left it for longer to heal, it might be better, rather than agitating it! I'm not sure. Maybe the doctor will know :)

Hawthers, I don't think the dryness helps either :( But even with assistance on that front, it's still not right..!

I'll book an appointment sometime next week. I need to go anyway to get more pills..

Urgh, tag team babies sounds tough Dream. We had a rubbish night here too - I gave up and chucked her in bed with me in the end (DH was away), which was probably for the best as I now feel semi human!

Madly expressing milk today as my parents are looking after Iz tomorrow night while DH and I go to my brother's production - which is a black tie event! DH is chuffed he can fit into one of his old suits, after losing lots of weight. Whereas I'm a tad worried as to whether I can squeeze into a dress and whether I'll be able to sit down once I have.

Does crawling help with sleep? It is supposed to...

Not the best night here either - M up every 2 hours again. Sigh. I don't know what to do, and I'm scared that anything I try will actually make her worse. I'm starting to get really horrible and I just wish she would learn to do something. She can't do anything that people ask me about - she can't crawl, she can't sleep through, she won't let me spoon feed her savoury food, she isn't pulling herself to standing or cruising...I feel like a failure. She's been asleep for 2 hours now and I wish I'd just gone to bed when she did, but instead I made a cup of tea, ate 3 mini cream cakes and MNed for 2 hours.

Too! The whole bay comparison, people asking thing is such a headfuck. Ignore anything anyone says to you about your baby. She will crawl, stand up etc and it is a bit annoying really quite frankly. Much better when they sit still :)

So she feeds herself then if you dont spoon fed her? Well that's a skill she's learnt!

And she can clap and f can't at 11 months. It will come in time and until then lie

Too, if Iz is any indication.. then crawling definitely doesn't help with sleep! The only thing I've heard from some people is that the first tooth sometimes does. Fellow brookers, any responses!?

Oh, Too, meant to say - how sweet with regard to the clapping!

Also, definitely ignore all the baby comparison bits. Iz can crawl (still requires a bit of thought before she does it each time!), but can't reliably sit on her own - she does for a bit, then thinks she'd prefer to stand and so straightens out, making her fly backwards. All a bit risky.

Also.. when Iz slept last night... I should have gone to bed, but instead devoured huge amounts of ice cream (feeling sorry for myself as DH wasn't around), tried to fix some stupid IT issue a client had that just annoyed me, and ended up googing stuff for ages. Ridiculously big to do list to tackle today. Iz is sleeping now - and of course I'm MN-ing rather than tackling anything from it...