im so anxious about threats to cut ctc...

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god i feel so depressed about the threatened cut to ctc, i have been following the news religiously about this new emergency budget, and have just read an updat which was posted tonigha 22.10 which states that incomes £30.000 or over will not be entitled to ctc

im so pissed off with this and feel so anxious

There are two opposing kinds of economists on this point. No one really knows which are right. You spend and spend on the one hand and that ensures you aren't immediately into huge recession in the hope you make the recession not as bad - we've been doing that or you don't pour any more money into the economy and let it right itself.

Economists fundamentally disagree on it or rather the extent of intervention.
Depends how Keynsian you are -en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

But all our political parties are much the same in the UK so I don't think there is a huge distance between Labour and the Tories on most of these points.

Xenia - yes its usually the women who are targeted isnt it as they earn less.

I earn nearly double what my DH does so it will be him giving up work probably if tax credits and CB go. He has actually said he is fine to do this but other people seem horrified at it (usually the same ones who berate me for having a career).

Why the f**k have three kids when your household income is £17K. Some people need to belt up and take responsibility for themselves.

Oh yes.....lets restrict children for the poorer in society. Maybe sterilisation. FFS.

It is not about saying the poor can't have chidren but we all have to cut our cloth accordingly.

My family income is considerably higher than 17K but there is not way on earth we could afford three children so don't have that many.

I don't know whether there can be a system whereby people who already have their tax credits can keep them. So if you have got your mortgage, planned your budget you can keep the tax credits. But from Tuesday the till is shut unless you fall under a certain income.

flockwallpaper thank you for that thoughtful comment. Not that I need to justify myself to you, but:

DH worked full-time, I was a part-time RN. We had 2 children who were 2.7 and 12 mo. I fell pregnant with DD3 (very much wanted and planned, incidently). All was good. DD1 was a handful, but they all grow up, don't they?

At 9 weeks pregnant, preschool raised concern about DD1's development (previous concerns were written off by the HV team, and I was reassured that she was fine). Three weeks later she started to fall over for no reason.

To cut a long and emotionally draining story very short, DD1 was diagnosed with a brain malformation. She is not going to grow up in the same way as most children. The constant supervision she needed at 2.9 is still needed, in fact more so, at 4.6.

DH had to cut his hours to a 4 day week, and I had to stop work. I spend a lot of my time sorting out the provision for DD1 and liaising with health professionals, education etc.

So, we went from an income of over 25K to DH's income of 14.5K plus Carer's Allowance for me, as DD1 gets High Rate Care component of DLA.

I hope that illustrates how a family can go from getting minimal tax credits to relying on them as a major source of income.

I don't think anyone would want to deny someone in your situation any help, but too many people without such problems have 3,4,5+ children at the tax payers expense.

"look how many people spend hundreds in IKEA each year updating their cushions"

Hehehe, very Mumsnet.

lou, so sorry to hear about your DD.

hornofplenty, I'm not sure how you can know that.

The truth is it is easy to criticise people when we don't actually know their circumstances. There are many people in difficult circumstances through no fault of their own.

My DH has a reasonably well paid job, we get by, but things are very finely balanced. He is having to take a lot of time off because of my illness. I hope his previous excellent record holds him in good stead with his employers, but if redundancies come around, who can say?

I know it because that was the environment in which I was raised and fought tooth and nail to escape.

I know it because I have taught in schools where familes have 3,4,5+ children and yet they have never worked.

People who have never worked aren't the people we're talking about here, are they?

Perhaps I'm getting confused, but I was referring to those people who are working, but earning a poor wage, those people who rely on CTC to top up their earnings so that they can work.

If we're talking about those who've never worked then I think that's a whole other issue.

But even people on a low wage need to match the number of children they have to what they can afford. I would love more - but we can afford one so we have one. Now maybe that is harsh but so maybe people can have 2 and get child benefit/ tax credits - under a certain income - but after that the help from the state has to stop.

see www.idrc.ca/en/ev-27520-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html - very interesting publication "Social Policy Reform in Canada".

Blimey - some of you here don't mince your words do you. Barmyarmy for example in opinioning that they need to cut or remove CTC while saying she doesn't need to claim even CB. Talk about "well I'm alright but fuck the rest of you...." Nice!

The financial position I was in when I had my (planned) dcs is very different to now.
2 years ago our joint earnings were too much to get even the basic level of tc- which I was told effectively 'replaced' the married mans tax allowance of approx £10 a week.
I was made redundant and now work more hours for virtually the same money. DH is in the construction industry so work has been scarce, 6 months between jobs sometimes and he's not entitled to JSA.
You cannot be expected to decide when to have children based on whether you can guarantee your income for the following 20 years.
Lives change, incomes change and it's not always in your control.
No matter how frugal I am, without ctc, we simply could not have managed.

I am so worried about what will happen next! The company I work for have said that there are going to be redundencies if VAT goes up as they just can't compete with the huge high street shops that have huge amounts of cash behind them and the 'work from home' businessess that aren't VAT reg so cut their prices so hardly any profit is made; between the two they are crippling small busineses. It is so worrying as my husband has just lost his job so I am really not sure what will happen - I really hope that the news on Tuesday is not as bleak as it is being made out to be.

Its unfair to say as a sweeping statement that families with lots of children shouldn't have had them if they can't afford them. So many people have so many different circumstances and I know I never planned to have 5 children but thats what I now have. Both my DH and I have residency of the children from our previous marriages so we are a family of 7 but neither of us expected this to be the way our families would be. Maintanance from ex's is very hit and miss and no way could the wages we get support all 5 children, ctc are a major part of our income. Not all larger families are in it for the benefits or intentionally that size.

'Why the f**k have three kids when your household income is £17K. Some people need to belt up and take responsibility for themselves.'

Have you never heard of accidents my friend wanted sterilization after her second because she was told she would not bring her child to term and unlikely that another child would live. Her gp would not give her one stating she may regret not having a girl and she was to young. She had a coil fitted she has just given birth to her dd with cerebral palsy . She has now had to give up work is really struggling for money because she has to take her dd for loads of hospital appointment and physio.

Even if it is not a accident perhaps they think other things are more important than money and it is extremely arrogant to assume only you know best. It is easy to look out from paradise and judge others.

Is £17k really all that crap anyway? I would have thought that you could pay rent, run a small second hand car and feed a few people on £17k - ok, no holidays abroad, no designer clothes, no huge flatscreen tvs etc. But it's hardly a third world scenario!!!

LMSS I am on 16,000 we have bought a 3bedroomed house (I had always saved half my wages and we had a 30% deposit) We go on holiday once a year, have sky and a few luxeries, good quality food, enough clothes, and money to learn to drive.

We have considered a third because dp is on a trainee wage within 5years it will more than double. I am doing open university and in about 5years will be qualified so we will also have that extra money. We could afford a third without sacrificing much, yes we claim tax credits but If I worked I would take a job that someone who is on full benefits and claiming more than me could have (not that I think there is anything wrong with WM just the reason I don't feel guilty for not working and claiming tax credits). 17,000 is peanuts in London but where I live it is the average wage and we could quite easily afford three dc.

slushy06 - I absolutely agree with you. I really don't think raising a family on £17k is that much of an impossibility, provided you're prepared to budget/save or go without a few luxuries. Like you, £17k is a decent wage where I live, though I'm sure it wouldn't be great in London.

I'm just a bit aghast at flockwallpaper's comment above!

How will it work for single parents as im on 14k a year and i need tax credits to pay for childcare for my two children while im at work.I have to work full time to cover the costs of my home and to provide my children with things they need.

i dont think CTC is being cut for people earning less than 30k??

Lets face it, if you are on 50K, you really dont NEED the extra CTC.

I think the whole nation needs to get back thinking about NEED vs WANT. The latest games console, the flatscreen TV, the holidays, the mobile phones....these are all luxuries, not NEEDS.

We also have to get a grip about "entitlement" vs "responsibility". We are not "entitled" to have as many children as we like while expecting the state to pay for them. Private sector salaries do not rise according to family numbers, so benefits should not either. You gets your money, you makes your choices, as my old nan used to say.