Dave's cuts are going be deep and they will hurt

[FellatioNelson]

I've been hearing this all day on the radio. I can't take the suspense any longer. They are going to affect the lives of 'every one of us'

I feel like a person wincing and clenching my teeth in anticipation of the big fuck-off needle the school nurse is wielding, and I'm next in the queue....

Come on then, what's it going to be?

Can't argue there!

Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal and some would say, good business sense.

"Yet when certain societal groups consistently under-achieve we tell ourselves it's not their fault, it's our fault for allowing them to be poor."

Agree with your post Nelson...especially this comment. I'm not convinced that just throwing money at a problem will solve it.

"Tax avoidance is widespread, and not just amongst the high earners"

Tax avoidance is legal whereas tax evasion, as proposed by your plumber, is illegal

Incidentally Lenin, I agree with taxing land that isn't being used for economic purposes but cannot agree with a mansion tax.

Taxing wealth for the sake of it is the politics of envy.

I would have a lot of sympathy with anyone expected to find £20k pa in mansion taxes - living in an expensive property does not necessarily equate to a vast disposable income.

Nelson and flockwallpaper - I agree and wonder whether we need to reconsider how we measure child poverty?

At the moment it is measured in monetary terms - household income of less than 60% the national average I think - but it seems to me that true child poverty has less to do with household income and more to do with the opportunities available.

It is no good throwing money at families if they still don't talk to their children, read to them, give them breakfast etc. They may be above the poverty line, but still impoverished imo.

Lenin - taxing unearned income would be fair and reasonable, but mansion tax doesn't do this; it targets the family home.

Tax avoidance may be legal but it's scamming the system in just the same way as the much berated benefit cheat. Being legal doesn't make one more morally acceptable than the other.

There have been no cuts to HE - 10,000 more places are being funded.

"Tax avoidance may be legal but it's scamming the system in just the same way as the much berated benefit cheat. Being legal doesn't make one more morally acceptable than the other."

There is no may about it - tax avoidance (NOT evasion) is legal. Benefit cheat isn't and gets the cheater a criminal record if proven. I often wonder how many, if they were in that position or suddenly found themselves in that position, would not try and mitigate their tax liability...

Earthworm, I agree, it is the more subtle influences such as reading to children, making sure they eat breakfast so they can concentrate better at school, that make a difference to life chances. Giving families that don't do these things extra money won't necessarily change anything. It's probably a good thing to keep surestart going.

Tax avoidance is right and proper. If a husband and wife could both earn £10k part time or the husband earn £20k working full time and wife not working, they might choose each to work part time so they each have a single person allowance used. That is tax avoidance. It is sensible.

If you make contriutinos to your pension fund and claim tax relief - that is tax avoided. It is lawful and nothing wrong with it.

Cash in hand to plumbers is a crime by the plumber.

Every person has a right to arrange their tax affairs lawfully to pay the lowest amount they can to HMRC. Of course anyone on this thread like lenin who thinks taxes are too low could decide to give to the state say 100% of every penny earned over say £20,000. Go forth and give those who think we don't pay enough tax.

There is a lot of politics of envy on this thread but the bottom line is that most people don't earn much and that's where the cuts will fall so people had better get ready for it. We all know if you put upper tax rates up to 83% people like me would just move somewhere else until the tax take got so low they would have to reduce UK rates to normal levels before we returned to work hard in the UK to generate benefits for the poor.

No, universities still offer grants as do a lot of different organisations, you just have to look for these as they are not widely advertised.

Minthumbug, I'm not sure if grants are available any more. I was 'lucky' enough to be from a household classed as poor so I received a full grant and top up loans to get me through university, but as you say, friends whose parents had an income just above the threshold really struggled with finances, often had to work alongside studying, and possibly got a worse class of degree as a result. I could never see how that was fair.

Taxing wealth FOR THE SAKE OF IT is the poilitics of envy. The wealthy have the the money so it makes sense to tax them. If one were to do this in a way that reduced total tax take and carried on regardless, that would be the politics of envy.

The argument for hitting the poor and low earners seems to be it's easier 'cos they haven't got the means to wriggle out of it.

Re grammars, the pass mark in my area is 95%, the only way to get your kids in is by tuition which costs approx £20 per hour. A lot of parents (including me) send their kids to highly selective private schools in the 6th form to further enhance their chances of entry to an excellent university. Do I think I should pay VAT on these school fees? Hell yes. I understand and admit that I might be taking away the chances of equally bright though less fortunate kids and I consider this only fair and proper.|

"I understand and admit that I might be taking away the chances of equally bright though less fortunate kids and I consider this only fair and proper." - you consider that to be fair because you can pay for it and they can't?