am I alone in being very heartened that the alquaida operative is not being deported?

[Heathcliffscathy]

because we absolutely should not deport anyone under any circumstance who we know will be tortured.

a victory for justice and human rights today imo.

no of course not onagar. i made that point because further down people were referring to it as if it was a personal peccadillo of mine.

Good points Edam

sophable if this is all so easy for you then why don't you pop round to my house tomorrow and try explaining to my 5 yr old why his mummy isn't the same person that she used to be? Try explaining to him how his mummy's life will never be the same again and how that impacts on him on a daily basis. Whilst you are at it you can also explain to him how lucky he is that he still has a mummy at all and how she was one of the lucky ones who survived whilst those around her died. Fancy that?

I really hope that the Cons will do something to change the law. The Judges have to make stupid decisions if the law is stupid.

anon, i don't care so much about him as about me! if i don't maintain a democratic lawful process that protects him than I am unprotected. Am amazed that you don't get that.

"It's not a human right to be sheltered by a country you happen to be attacking." Very well said, Onager.

That's absolute shite Sophable.
By worrying about his rights, you erode your own. Don't you get that?

And how odd that you have changed your tune-earlier on your tone was that of moral superiority and a general rejoicing at his having been spared torture. Now you purport not to be worrying too much about him.

Where exactly are you coming from.I can't quite work out from which directi?n you are taking this on.

Sophable, You said to me it's not a principle it's the law.

But you say you would not have been happy if he had been sent home in a manner consistent with our laws.

In that case you are not arguing about the law, but about your view of human rights which you presumably think should be above the law?

moondog I'm not sure if sophable's comments are born from arrogance or ignorance or a mix of both .

We are all proud to live in democratic process HOWEVER the HR are actually impeding that process on so many levels.
The state is not able to bring about sound strong convictions as the evidence gathering process has to give regard to HR & the SS cannot operate in a safe manner protecting themselves & the public without comprimising the case because the constant need to give regard to HR is at odds with covert evidence gathering. Which is not all James Bond dark clandestine stuff it is actually essential to ensure that these terrorists are stopped BEFORE they kill or jump on a plane back to a safe haven.

I wonder where this particular person would of chosen to escape to had he not been arrested... my money would be on one of the countries he now claims to be fearfuil of.

it's not inconsistent, i said I wasn't AS worried about him as me. I defend his right under our law not to be tortured. I want a criminal justice system that protects us all from the vagaries of political opinion and opinion and conjecture are all that's left when you start convicting without evidence.

defending ourselves against terrorism isn't easy. and historically the ONLY way of defeating it is to sit down and talk to the terrorists. making more and more draconian, pre-emptive and suspect laws won't protect us. waging illegal wars won't protect us. you have to ask yourself WHY people are willing to blow themselves up to make a point...MollieO i'm really sorry that you've been directly affected by terrorism as you imply, but torturing this guy will not protect you, there are countless more ready to take his place. all allowing his deportation and torture does is erode and sense of there being a differentiation between us and them.

and on that note, i go to bed.

'mumblechum it's not about him, it's about us, and our society.'

that he wants to annihilate.

if he manages to complete a mission that sees people killed here, will you be heartened then?

yes, i know US/UK forces are responsible for many deaths in the Middle East, but two wrongs don't make a right.

But Prolesworth, the only reason they weren't caught red handed was because the police had to arrest them earlier than planned because of the leak from the Home Office/who ever it was who was photographed with the dossier.

The rules are that we don't deport people to countries where we believe that they will be tortured. So it is obviously a good thing he has not been deported as it shows the legal system is operating correctly.

If you dissaprove then what needs to happen is a change to the law, change Pakistan, or to our opinion of Pakistan.

If you want to change the law, you either need to say torture is ok (unlikely to sell this one despite 7 series of 24), is a price worth paying (more salable, but morally dubious), or preventable (best option - but unlikely to actually be carried out).

We are already trying to change Pakistan, as are a lot of Pakistanis - but I don't think it's going to change any time very soon.

Or we can just pretend that torture doesn't happen in Pakistan - this is not likely to be a sustainable position.

I think we will end up deporting people, but then paying to protect them in the countries we send them back to.

sophable I was injured in a terrorist attack on my way to work in London. Foolishly I thought I lived in a country that was safe. Unfortunately I have since acquired rather too much knowledge on the threats that surround us on a daily basis and just how hard our security forces are working to protect us. I would rather not be in that position. I would love to be able to pontificate like you but I can no longer do that. Once real life is affected your views on what is right can change.Maybe that makes me a lesser person but I find today's decision completely skewed.

The country MUST puT some trust in the SS at the moment they are just as bound by beaurocracy as every other government and civil service dept. Some would require tweaking & exemption to law & accountability after the fact. Allow them to do their job, yes they must be accountable but when it prevents them protecting the nation something is wrong.

& Sophable, if they were just blowing themselves up to make a point i'm sure we wouldn't all feel so strongly BUT they want to blow US up don't we.
My basic HR surely should allow my government & legal system to protect me as a British Citizen first & foremost

I am amazed anyone who plots an act of terrorism against a country can then be afforded asylum in the very place he wishes to destroy.
Does that make me a bad person?

oops should of read don't THEY not WE

Seems Greeny and Coolfonz broadly share your opinion (apologies if I've left anyone else out) and almost everyone else disagrees - so you are not quite alone in being very heartened.

but nearly

well sophable, don't say you haven't always secretly yearned to be stuck in a lift with me