A sixth of Scots voted for the Tories

[abr1de]

Apparently Around one-sixth of Scottish voters support the Conservatives, but are rewarded not with 10 seats but with one

Sorry, when I said urban areas I meant urban areas across the UK. That was me losing my point halfway through, not a 'Scottish point'. It was more about the general unfairness of variable voting constituencies.

I do take your point about the debates. Must be frustrating. On the other hand, it's one of the knock on difficulties from devolution. The reason lots of that wasn't relevant is that they were devolved matters, so you have your own elections to deal with those issues. But when the UK as a whole is voting for an election that will govern on those issues, it's natural to want to cover them in the debate. I think it's one of the unsatisfactory elements of devolution actually.

Sorry, when I said urban areas I meant urban areas across the UK. That was me losing my point halfway through, not a 'Scottish point'. It was more about the general unfairness of variable voting constituencies.

I do take your point about the debates. Must be frustrating. On the other hand, it's one of the knock on difficulties from devolution. The reason lots of that wasn't relevant is that they were devolved matters, so you have your own elections to deal with those issues. But when the UK as a whole is voting for an election that will govern on those issues, it's natural to want to cover them in the debate. I think it's one of the unsatisfactory elements of devolution actually.

I think we're on the same side of the argument RibenaBerry IIRC. My bugbear is that Scotland outside the urban areas is really badly represented and consequently the urban vote becomes the "Scottish" vote.

I for one had no problem with the debates at all. They were UK debates and the SNP have no relevance at all UK wide.

Oh yes, clearly Salmond had no place in the debates - not relevant to 3/4 countries in the UK. I suppose what I meant is that it must be dull to hear them going on about schools etc.

Interesting point about urban areas. In my mind Scotland isn't associated with urban at all. But that's because me and my best friend from school both had family in different remote bits of the Highlands...

I've only been here 3 years so I still forget that English education policy is nothing to do with us. I'm not impressed with the Scottish version so far.

backtotalkaboutthis- if you are finding Scottish people have a problem with you, it may be to do with your frankly insulting tone, rather than the fact that you are English.

Personally I would love Scotland to be independant. NOT because I have seen Braveheart, or through some misguided auld enemy emotion, but because I see a progressive, strong nation, quite capable of looking after its own affairs, despite being told for yeeaaars and ad nauseam that we would be "nothing without England"

Dislike English people- no.

Dislike being told that we are a bunch of scroungers that need handouts and a pat on the head from our bigger neighbour-yes

Dislike the fact that we are now ruled by a government we didn't vote for and which doesn't really give two hoots about Scotland, and the differences in our two countries- yes

Dislike people making the same old generalisations about the Scots, time after time- yes

Maybe the fact that very few Scots have joined in in swapping petty generalisations with you, backto, is that we have heard it all before, and it really isn't worth it.

No I don't find Scottish people have a problem with me. I find there is no problem at all. I don't call Scottish people scroungers, or inferior. Which is why it's so dull to hear the same old generalisations about England and the English. I don't have an insulting tone. I don't like being the victim of prejudice and generalisation, and I know which comes first.

Do you think if you got the telly you want, you'd not want independence any more? Is that the point some of you are making?

I don't understand why the BBC buys English and not Scottish football either and it would annoy me. I would hope that's not the top and bottom of it though.

backtoback: "Gosh I'd love the Scots to get independence. Frightfully prejudiced against England and the English. Ghastly. I would love to fulfil their hearts' desire."

That's not a generalisation? Calling a whole nation of individuals "ghastly" based on your assessment (and presumably you have met all of us) isn't bigotted, or insulting? If I called you "ghastly" and accused you of prejudice against another nation,(without even knowing you) you wouldn't take offence?

"Do you think if you got the telly you want, you'd not want independence any more? Is that the point some of you are making?"

Yeah, that's the crux of all our issues really, isn't it? That is actually pretty unpleasant, imo. As if that could be the only reason we would want to govern our own country. But feel free to imply that we are all actually that shallow and dim.

"I find there is no problem at all. I don't call Scottish people scroungers, or inferior"- presumably then you either realise that the Scots DO actually put their fair share into the communal pot, and are NOT being subsidised, or you are happy to subsidise a nation of "ghastly" and "prejudiced" people

I mean their prejudice is ghastly. I don't condemn the people, I condemn the prejudice. Otherwise people are as they are, some nice, some not etc. But on this issue it's just yawn yawn yawn.

The TV thing has been brought up a few times. It seems very important indeed.

"During the 9 years that I lived in England, I expereinced far more comments and teasing about my Scottishness than I have ever seen or expereinced in Scotland (and for the record, when I moved back, my "posh" accent meant that many people assumed I was English)he only"

This is the only experience which has the ring of truth as a genuine reason for resentment. I have never experienced this, I've experienced the exact opposite, but as I've related my experiences I have to accept prettybird's too. Shame she can't reciprocate.

No idea what your last point is. No idea at all. If you want independence, go for it.

Otherwise it seems to be posters saying "you are wrong to say Scottish people are resentful and prejudiced against the English" and then giving reasons like TV and UK-outsiders' assumptions that British = English as reasons for their own resentment and prejudice.

"I find there is no problem at all. I don't call Scottish people scroungers, or inferior"- presumably then you either realise that the Scots DO actually put their fair share into the communal pot, and are NOT being subsidised, or you are happy to subsidise a nation of "ghastly" and "prejudiced" people

OK on this last point, I think you are getting at the fact that because I don't say Scottish people are scroungers, I don't think they are scroungers.

If this is it, then on a personal level, no I don't think Scottish people are scroungers or mean. On a national level, I've always assumed they/you would do alright independently with the North Sea, tourism, whatever. I have no knowledge of what they put in the pot and have always assumed it's fair. Why wouldn't I? I haven't heard English people complain about it. Ever. I've always assumed that if Scottish people want independence, they've done the sums and know they'll do fine raising their own taxes. And I suppose having a Scottish licence fee and SBC. If you think you can manage it, go ahead.

My last point is that even if you haven't used the words "scroungers" or "inferior", if you think that we are heavily subsidised by England, and resent that, then the sentiment is there, regardless. So, either you don't think we are heavily subsidised, or you are happy to subsidise us, even though you believe us to be such a ghastly, prejudiced nation, which seems a bit surprising. Or you do actually think we are scroungers!

And there's no point in me "going for it" with regards to independence, as the majority of my fellow-Scots don't want it. Most Scottish people don't have faith in our ability to manage our own finances and affairs, which is sad to me, but is their prerogative, and a different debate!

x-posts. But if you look at a thread on here from a week or so ago, you will see a lot of people commenting on how much money England "gives" to Scotland, and also a lot of anti-Scottish prejudice because of it. Special outrage being reserved for the fact that we have reduced prescription fees etc (as budgeted for by the Scottish Parliament)

I've never said there is heavy subsidy, I don't resent Scottish people, I don't think they are scroungers, I haven't heard English people call them scroungers -- I just don't like the prejudice. How many times?

If you read superiority into that, where there is none -- that's called having a chip on your shoulder. If you read "I don't think Scottish people are scroungers" as "I secretly think Scottish people are scroungers" then you have a chip on your shoulder. Ditto if you read "I don't think Scottish people are inferior" as "I secretly think Scottish people are inferior".

I don't have a problem with Scotland or Scottish people except for this prejudice. But it seems prejudice is unacceptable against every culture and nation -- oh, except for the English. Then if we object, we are bigots. Yeah right.

I didn't see that thread. But I believe you.

The thread was awful. The bile against Scotland that was spouted really shocked me. here. Personally I think it would be a terrible thing for the UK if Scotland and Wales were to be independent but obviously its their choice.

I've just read the top of it -- well I wasn't a part of that and was definitely talking about my own experience. It seems people reacted to THAT thread on THIS thread.

My interest is piqued though, I'd quite like to see the sums now on English / Scottish money in the pot.

Also I don't care about Scottish universities being free but I think it's pissy that they aren't free for English people. Only Scottish and EU. That is extremely unfair.

Yes, I may have been reacting in the aftermath of THAT thread- it seems there are quite a few English people who resent the Scots- guess it works both ways. If you read that thread you will see PLENTY of anti-Scottish prejudice, which might surprise you, but it is there. It is something that lots of Scottish people have been exposed to and are well aware of, unfortunately. Sorry for tarring you with the same brush, if you truly don't feel like that, but your first post re us being ghastly and prejudiced did read like someone with a beef against the Scots, and I responded to that sentiment.

Personally, I don't blame "the English" for any of our problems. I will be the first to admit that Scottish people can be their own worst enemies, and history supports this. I don't know that being ruled from Westminster, by a government we definitively did NOT vote for, is the answer, however.

I've just read some very interesting pro and anti pieces in the Times and Independent and some on the SNP website.

You can see the "net contributor" issue both ways. With and without the oil, basically. Particularly if Scotland had to repay the costs of oil infrastructure and fund new exploration, cancelling out a lot of the benefit. Also about the per head spend of Westminster comparing Scotland to the England (not including Wales).

The per head spending calculation works out very badly for Scotland so that is where the funding issue comes from. If people have looked at the statistics then it's not prejudice, it's one interpretation of the statistics.

If one is a unionist then one shouldn't even be looking at net contributor figures, because then one might ask for independance for Liverpool, or the Welsh valleys. It's the responsibility of all to help all, within a nation.

But then the English aren't the ones raising the issue of independence, in general. It's more a case of saying "ok off you pop and good luck to you fnar fnar" when it's raised rather than "look you cost us too much piss of whether you want to or not".

can't spell "off", what is the world coming to

backtotalkaboutthis.

You are missing the point about the call for independence. It is not that people in Scotland hate the English because they do not. There is a minority that proffess their hatred but thankfully they are very much in a minority.

Both nations benefited from the Union of the Parliaments in 1707 however neither nation benefits from it now. As such it should be dissolved.

Furthermore, the media in Britain is geared towards England. This situation is not good for either nation because it creates false impressions and perceptions.

I have had enough of reading about scots complaining about a lib dem /conservative govt as that isn't what scotland voted for.

Well what about most of the rural counties of England? - barely any of these voted for a labour MP from 97-2010 but we had to quietly put up with a city orientated labour government we didn't vote for. Then there are people who vote for small parties who don't get what they vote for.

It comes across to me that the scots are rather arrogant and small minded in assuming that they can tell the rest of the UK what government we should have and that if they don't get their way (labour govt) they will ask for independence.

Surely would be better if the scots encouraged a move to proportional representation so everyone in the UK has a vote that counts.

Is the term sweaty sock allowed?

I presume that the Scottoish APrliament already has PR? The Assembly here has a version in place.

We also didn't vote for a Tory Government and tbh I rather envy the Scots having a LD Minister; more than we have! The Welsh Minister, let's just say, is not starting off well wrt to the Assembly!

We're English (well, I am part Welsdh and ds4 is Welsh but YKEWIm- moved here aged 30) but prefer Wales and the Welsh way in the main; especially their devolved eductaion policy. It can be grating however to be told things like CTF funds are all stopping 9that's fine with me) to prtovide extyra respite- but not respite outside of England (social Worker today was pretty annoyed by that as well) whiilst theAssembly budget is but by 186 million IIRC and frankly I wonder if Parliament remembers that there are carers outside England too adn that their funding is as important