Which is more important now: political reform or the economy?

[FrakkinTheReturningOfficer]

Political reform is going to be bad for the economy, in the short term at least.

Sorting out the economy probably means putting political reform on hold.

Which would you choose?

Claig - im not defending things i don't say. I see Labour as a right wing party. monetarist, imperialist etc...

Ditto the Democrats and the Repubs in the US. The Democrats are still bombing wedding parties, screwing ordinary people in the US, covering up torture, refusing to prosecute war criminals...

Tell that to my cleaner policywonk and my kids music teachers and the gardener and the tradesmen that we employ everytime we need something done - all the tradesmen I know rub their hands together at bankers bonus time - if that isn't trickle down I don't know what is.

Guys, under most scenarios Labour are in the best medium term position:

-They can sit back and wait to collect LibDem support if LibDems get together with Cons.

-They can renew themselves in a years time with a shiny new leader.

-They can come clean on Iraq, offer PR, ID cards and maybe trident to mop up LibDem support.

_They can watch Tories have to make cuts and manage the ensuing Sovereign debt crisis

They don't need to rush or panic. GB must realise this which is why he said NC and DC can have as much time as they need to get together . Dont see much downside for Labour as the other two parties

Indeed Gordon would cut off his penis to stay in power. That's his career. Career politicians are not compatible with democracy, it just becomes the game.

Politics should be wedded to multiple referenda and a jury-service-style office (ie: not permanent) We would still make mistakes but our countries would be ruled by law, by courts, and a far greater percentage of the will of the people, even if the people do daft things we most likely wouldn't slaughter women and kids on far off lands...which would be a start.

Sont worry about Gordon, he will be traded in for the right price at the right time

The gap between rich and poor has widened massively over the last 30 years (during the period of financial deregulation). That pretty much puts the boot into trickle-down.

"Tell that to my cleaner policywonk and my kids music teachers and the gardener and the tradesmen that we employ everytime we need something done - all the tradesmen I know rub their hands together at bankers bonus time - if that isn't trickle down I don't know what is."

Unbelievable. So, so out of touch. Go and tell that to Middlesbrough or Toxteth or...lists the entire UK outside W1/E1

Sorry, but these exact same arguments were trotted out over the abolition of slavery...what would the fucking plebs do if it weren't for the chosen few?

This isn't unexpected during a time of economic boom. The question is whether govt raised the floor of poverty. I think they did so to some extent eg. reducing child poverty but job wasnt done

at madamecastafiore

You have No Idea what life is really like, do you?

Gordon Brown was an honourable man when he made the speech allowing the Tories to have first go at creating a government. But he had to do that, the country would not accept otherwise. Labour are finished for years, none of their Princes in shining armour will be able to save them. The Lib Dems will join the government and build up credibility that way. They could very well start to occupy the middle ground and force Labour further left towards socialist oblivion.

MadameCastafiore is right, wealth was earned by certain people and it spread into the economy. She is not claiming that it helped everybody, but the ripples of wealth helped some. In the socialist paradise of the Eastern bloc not much wealth was created, people drove Trabants and Ladas if they were lucky, and queued around the corner for a slice of meat once a week.

We are not the chosen few by any means - we weren't chosen at all DH has worked hard in the same job for nearly 20 years and did nothing to exacerbate the financial crisis - he is not in that area at all - his parents aren't rich and mine are but that is from a business started by my father who didn't have any more opportunities than anyone else in this country - he can still hardly read - I work in the NHS and see things everyday which would make you toes curl but I work bloody hard and find it incredible when people think we have been handed things on a plate.

Really I think some of you should go and live in a nice communist country for a while and see how equality for all actually works - oh no it doesn't does it, we have realised that after revolution after bloody revolution.

Yeah yeah yeah, we all love east Germany and the Soviet Union...jesus...

What the fuck is socialist about Labour?

And the rich are the only people who work hard, sigh.

i find myself agreeing with coolfonz and policywonk as usual.

it seems clear to me that we are so utterly trained in the importance of the free market...the very self same free market that has just FAILED and brought us to our knees.

it's mad isn't it:

woman marries man. man batters and exploits woman and all this finally goes public in a huge incident which does not allow for this violence and exploitation to be hidden anymore. 2 weeks later everyone advising woman that she must be careful to keep said man happy or else armageddon will ensue.

it's a crap analogy, but i like it.

MadameCastafiore, you are spot on. The great thing is that the people of the country agree with you. That's why we voted Labour out.

the huge deficits are the result of bailing out massive financial institutions who held a gun to the head of society

not true actually. the bulk of the deficit is actually caused by the long running (and deepening) overspend by the government - the bank bailout didn't help, you're talking about a national debt of 30k per household of which a few quid was caused by the bank bailout. add another 30k of unfunded public sector pensions and you start realising that th bank bailout as relatively small beer.

Stop telling people that their only choice is betweem hyper-capitalism or Soviet communism. What nonsense.

Coolfonz, Brown is not socialist enough for you. Who do you like, the Socialist Workers' Party? The Cuban system?

coolfonz has already suggested Scandinavian social democracy as a viable alternative.

Frakkin said:

"Sure it's a capitalist view but newsflash: we live in a capitalist world."

Quite - Even the Scandinavian's are having to adapt to the pressures of the global economy. They appear to build the society they want within it's constraints - not by telling capitalism to FO!

the funny thing is the free marketeers are the Soviet apparatchiks. clinging to a system which they profit from as it slowly collapses. they had bread queues, we have unaffordable housing, they had shit cars, we have X factor...

Claig and Madame C could be talking to us from their dachas...